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I think the reason the price was so high is that they had to cover a portion of the profit Turnbridge would have been expected to realize. I don't know Turnbridge but I imagine they weren't scared by the pandemic, Fenton, or DoSo. I think that being behind Fenton in schedule was actually to Turnbridge's advantage because Fenton is going to create the momentum for the corridor. Being the first to break ground is the most difficult position to be in. Epic wanted it, and they were willing to buy out Turnbridge's development potential.
Given the mixed use nature that Carolina Yards had, they could have driven their build out with a pretty high probability of success. They had 2 existing anchors to start the retail, the Town was going to help with a large, multi-use sports venue, they could have went in with apartments and a hotel in the initial phases, which would have been attractive for renters with Fenton just across the road and the population growth projections for the area.
I can't imagine a scenario where Epic wouldn't have to go in for a PDP revision. In Cary the site plan has to substantially conform to the exhibits attached to the rezoning. Unless Epic plans on using the same street grid, they have alot of work ahead of them. It wouldn't make sense to pay that much and not develop a plan that's specific to your business.
Epic supposedly has a $17.3 billion equity valuation (since it's privately held we'll never know the exact amount), so while they might have overpaid for Cary Town Center, $95 million isn't going to break them!
I don't think for a moment that Epic overpaid for CTC, at least not by any great extent. They just missed the opportunity Turnbridge grabbed to get it dirt cheap.
87 acres already assembled, with a few thousand feet of street frontage, utilities, and eminently developable @$1.1 million/acre?
Long-term, it's a very good deal.
With the current zoning, the entitlements are tied to the master plan spelled out in the PDP, are they not? In order to get the entitlements to build 1.2msf of office, they have to adhere to the specified street grid, building envelopes, use mixes, etc - or is there something I'm missing here?
Or can we expect Epic to come back to the town with a new master plan that still asks for 1.2 million square feet of office, but calls for a SAS-like security checkpoint at every entrance with a perimeter fence built 6 inches inside the property line? (And we can expect the town to kowtow, because that's what they do?)
At any rate, 87 acres is an extremely large amount of land to be taken up by one company in a location as central and prime as this. This sucks, it really really sucks. I appreciate the economic impact that a company like Epic brings to the region, but you won't get me to believe that they wouldn't have just as much of an economic impact if they were situated on a 10-acre campus and housed in a couple high rises.
This feels like a repeat of SAS, whose campus occupies ONE THOUSAND prime acres for their 5,500-strong local workforce - a paltry 5.5 jobs per acre!
If you want, or need, a 90 acre single-use office campus, then, go to RTP - that's what it's meant for.
The thing I don’t fully understand is Epic has about 100,000 sf now on a bit under 10 acres. They have a little over 8 acres beside that for expansion. Maybe they’ve leased some space somewhere as I know they were planning on moving forward with more buildings, but I don’t see them suddenly needing over a million feet of space any time soon if ever. There is plenty of room to do more on that site.
Yeah, it should all be tied to the PDP, which makes no sense as a corporate campus, so I don't understand the claim about being able to use the existing entitlements.
There is basically a zero percent chance that Epic intends to conform to the PDP submitted by Turnbridge. They will have their “people†resubmit a revised PDP which conforms to their needs as a sole occupant of the property.
Epic Games is driving this show, and they will get what they want. The Town of Cary can huff and puff but at the end of the day, they will give Epic whatever it wants.
There is basically a zero percent chance that Epic intends to conform to the PDP submitted by Turnbridge. They will have their “people†resubmit a revised PDP which conforms to their needs as a sole occupant of the property.
Epic Games is driving this show, and they will get what they want. The Town of Cary can huff and puff but at the end of the day, they will give Epic whatever it wants.
Agreed, which is why I don't understand Epic's statement that the rezoning done by Turnbridge is what will allow them to get right to work on things. The new zoning is for MXD with the associated PDP. Surely the zoning is going to have to be changed again.
I don't think for a moment that Epic overpaid for CTC, at least not by any great extent. They just missed the opportunity Turnbridge grabbed to get it dirt cheap.
87 acres already assembled, with a few thousand feet of street frontage, utilities, and eminently developable @$1.1 million/acre?
Long-term, it's a very good deal.
I'll give you the 87 acres, eminently developable. The parcel is large and flat and it's 90% impervious so they won't have to worry about stormwater management or development limitations. The existing mall would probably have needed an 8 acre detention pond if it was developed today. The property is a blank slate from that standpoint and it's very close to their existing headquarters.
A few thousand feet of street frontage is more of a retail consideration. I've been to Epic and it's not like they're trying to bring the community into the campus, or even to attract notice. The utilities could be a pain to deal with. They're likely old and in the wrong locations. They'll have to be removed or abandoned. Sites like Bandwidth and Downtown South have plenty of access to utilities and major roadways without the baggage of dealing with old infrastructure. For an office campus development some variations in topography can be a good thing. Flat is ideal for a street grid and creating a "downtown" type of environment.
At the very least it seems like a very unconventional choice for a corporate campus. $20M would probably get you 100 acres on Davis Drive in RTP, which isn't all that far away. Or $50M for the state property at the intersection of Edwards Mill and NC54. But like I said earlier in the thread, with a privately owned company they can do whatever they want. Tim Sweeney could decide to make the site his personal estate if he wanted to, and if he thinks it's worth it then that alone makes it a very good deal for him.
I'll give you the 87 acres, eminently developable. The parcel is large and flat and it's 90% impervious so they won't have to worry about stormwater management or development limitations. The existing mall would probably have needed an 8 acre detention pond if it was developed today. The property is a blank slate from that standpoint and it's very close to their existing headquarters.
A few thousand feet of street frontage is more of a retail consideration. I've been to Epic and it's not like they're trying to bring the community into the campus, or even to attract notice. The utilities could be a pain to deal with. They're likely old and in the wrong locations. They'll have to be removed or abandoned. Sites like Bandwidth and Downtown South have plenty of access to utilities and major roadways without the baggage of dealing with old infrastructure. For an office campus development some variations in topography can be a good thing. Flat is ideal for a street grid and creating a "downtown" type of environment.
At the very least it seems like a very unconventional choice for a corporate campus. $20M would probably get you 100 acres on Davis Drive in RTP, which isn't all that far away. Or $50M for the state property at the intersection of Edwards Mill and NC54. But like I said earlier in the thread, with a privately owned company they can do whatever they want. Tim Sweeney could decide to make the site his personal estate if he wanted to, and if he thinks it's worth it then that alone makes it a very good deal for him.
And, $20 million would, possibly, get you 3 acres in DT Raleigh, if you could find it or assemble it.
We ARE talking about a premier DT Cary location, after all. Apples to apples. Maybe big apples to small apples.
Street frontage IS a significant consideration in commercial real estate, and we are talking value vs. overpayment in a commercial real estate transaction.
I can get you a $400,000 house in DT Cary.
1980 built. 1/4 acre lot. 1 car garage.
Or, you can spend the same $400,000 off Johnson Pond Rd.
2010 build. 3/4 acre lot. 2 car garage.
Location, Location, Location.
Choices, choices.
Neither is overpayment.
For an office campus development some variations in topography can be a good thing. Flat is ideal for a street grid and creating a "downtown" type of environment. At the very least it seems like a very unconventional choice for a corporate campus.
But for a little bit of timing, Cary could've had Wegman's anchoring the 87-acre CTC site -- fronting three major roads, with two traffic signals in place, and surrounded by other commercial, residential, and schools. (Yes, Wegman's would've been happy to join Belk; the Wegman's nearest me is in a Maryland lifestyle center which opened in 2010 with it and JCPenney as anchors.)
Meanwhile, the 92-acre Fenton property would make a great trophy corporate campus for Epic: it's hilly and scenic with a wooded ridge overlooking Walnut Creek, adjacent to a giant multi-sport recreational park with rugged trails, has limited access points, and IIRC was long zoned O&I anyhow.
For that timing error, I will squarely blame CBL. They were completely blind to any possibilities other than having a regional mall at that location, and resisted any approach other than swapping out anchor boxes. It took years of coaxing by the town to get them to acknowledge the mall should be opened up, and by that point the Fenton PDP had been negotiated and Wegman's lease signed. They couldn't even admit they lacked the capacity to redevelop the site until the bank forced their hand by calling default.
Having these uses in more appropriate places also would've saved town taxpayers some coin, as a good chunk of the 2019 bond issue is going to road improvements to get retail customers into Fenton. Those wouldn't be necessary if the retail traffic were at CTC, where road capacity is already mall-sized.
But for a little bit of timing... could've had Wegman's anchoring the CTC site fronting two major intersections and surrounded by other commercial and residential. Meanwhile, the Fenton property would make a great trophy corporate campus: hilly, streams, adjacent to a giant multi-sport recreational park, limited access points, and IIRC long zoned O&I anyhow.
TOC wants a pedestrian bridge between the two.
I think I would like to see a cable lift or gondola.
Or.. a zipline system.
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