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The question I have for all of you is do you actually discuss this kind of question in your real lives, somewhere other than on the internet? I do believe that people that stay angry, put upon, and always fighting for their opinions to be heard are miserable. Find someone who agrees with you, make it work, and leave the rest of the world alone. I have never characterized myself as a feminist, but I know that I benefit from the women that came before me and stood tall so that I have rights. I graduated from college and work outside of the home. When and if I get married, I don't expect anyone to tell me what to do. I am a grown woman with a fully functioning brain, who was taught by her father to be a strong, independent woman. Marriage will not change that. I will marry someone who believes that I have the same rights he does...not more rights...but the same. I will expect him to do half of the household chores or we will hire it done. This should not step on his toes...I don't understand what men are whining about. You want to work, work. You want to be a stay at home dad, be one. I wouldn't tell a man what to do, anymore than I would expect him to tell me what to do.
We live in a country with out a culture, trying to make sense of the world of so many cultures, the confusion will never stop.
Men have resigned their role as a leader in the home yet tug back at it again, but she won't let it go. Women like control even if they do not know how to use it. they do not want to be vulnerable , although they play at vulnerabiliy when dating ,just to catch a guy. the dumb smuck will never see it comming till it's to late. they agree with every thing the guy says , with the thought "I can change, or, I'll change him". ya right .
Few people start off being honest, transparent, genuine. All kinds of expectations are misunderstood. Gee who'da thunk it ?
There is no answer , at least one that every one is going to agree on, people are too diverse, and no one listens to the voice of expirence any way.
The best relationships I have ever witnessed ar those that both are in the same profession, not necessarily working together but basiclly doing the same kind of job for a living . these have a special understanding between one another other similiarities or differences do not matter as much.
I'm not talking willing to do I am saying both actually are , say automotive mechanics working for seperate dealerships, or lawyers, working in different offices as lawyers , not a lawyers secritary.
People who have an expertise in something are best encouraged by others in the same field . some one out side the field might appreciate them but not with the respect it takes to get there.
My wife liked the fact I was a mechanic, she did not like getting into working on the car , she is a store maneger, and I like the toys she would bring home , but i know nothing about that field , and it was easy to drift apart, we had less and less in common to discuss. the relationship became a srtuggle and the cone of silence put it to sleep.
What you do for a living Is a very important issue that efects the both of you, each of you have a vested interest in the same thing. talking shop strengthens the relationship . I've seen it in others, just wish I knew it a long time ago.
the mindset I saw from the OP was a failure to empathize with men, and her lamenting about some entitlement that she was supposed to get.
I am the OP and have no sense of entitlement at all. I made a statement that captured the thoughts of many on this forum and posed a question for everyone to think about. I encourage men to respond so that I can have a better understanding of where they're coming from.
He's talking about the way ANYTHING brought up as "what men want" -- without specifics or WITH specifics -- tends to get shoved aside.
Prime example: In another thread going in right now, one regarding a woman's sexual problems and proclivities (a particular woman, not "women") when it was revealed that the man in the scenario is embarrassed to attend counseling based on SEX, immediately two women dissed on him as both immature and a coward. NO mercy, no questioning as to why, they just went there instantly: Coward, lacking a pair, needing to grow up ("What is he, like 12? ")
Yet if a woman has any insecurity involving sex it's because "she needs understanding" or "she needs time" or "something has been done to her".
That kind of thing precisely, if you MUST have an example.
What do men want, you ask?
They want to feel like they're worth something to someone, and they want to feel that way without having to fight for every single inch of respect every single day. It's NO different than what women want, we just deal with a differentset of social expectations than women.
And yet our social difficulties and expectations are dismissed casually as invalid because they're "whining" and "pathetic" and we're supposed to be busy admitting that women are the underdogs battling it out for their slice of the pie which men clearly have just taken by brute force all along, subjugating the gals, etc, etc. That's what's really important, right?
There are others, myriad in nature, varying from case to case based on personal preference and situations just as such things vary from woman to woman. le roi was speaking generally and wasn't even hostile about it.
But I WILL be wrong about this -- because I'm just a man.
I'm sure YOU don't do that, and don't know any women who actually DO. No one ever does in here. It's all in the male imagination. Hell, it's practically a religious phenomenon.
I think the OP was opening a debate but it could easily be construed as centering on the bolded portion she was referencing: Why are women the pot instead of the soup? It goes right in line with what le roi was saying.
I am the OP. Emphasis applied so the reader would not miss the analogy. I opened up the thread for debate. Nothing more.
I claimed that feminism makes a habit of ignoring what men want, not that I could explain to you two how to make your husband or boyfriend happy.
the mindset I saw from the OP was a failure to empathize with men, and her lamenting about some entitlement that she was supposed to get.
I read the same post you did, and never saw a lament about entitlement at all. What do you think she believes she is entitled to? Also, I did not see a lack of empathy with men. It is hard to believe we read the same thing. Maybe you projected your own experiences onto the OP.
What you say is exactly right, or at least a large part of the equation, I'll readily admit.
Wouldn't you say, upon examination, that women do the same thing to themselves? Merely a question of examining and figuring out how?
And while what you say is true with regard to machismo and male-proving among men, it's a BIT (not saying it's wrong, but it begs the question of whether it's true or not, [edit]: or rather, how true) presuppositional to say women adopt it because of men? Not saying women CAUSE it, or that men alone CAUSE it; this is long-term generational, and I've heard as many woman say to sons Big Boys/Men don't act that way as I have fathers tell their sons.
As a woman I have heard, from childhood to present, men belittling boys and men by insinuating their actions are feminine. I have been and am guilty of this myself. But I do believe it is a learned behavior. I have witnessed men chastising women for giving into boys insecurities and weaknesses. Most women, as mothers and nurturers, will comfort and coddle little boys, especially if there is no man around to “correct” us.
I think women do do this to themselves mostly in the teenage and early adult years, but not as extreme as men. By our 30's we really dont have as rigid role to fit into or we just dont care.
I read the same post you did, and never saw a lament about entitlement at all. What do you think she believes she is entitled to? Also, I did not see a lack of empathy with men. It is hard to believe we read the same thing. Maybe you projected your own experiences onto the OP.
I saw a lament, definitely--we are talking about the OP, right?
Quote:
One line in Sunday night's episode, "The Beautiful Girls," summed up women's auxiliary role in an extended, and confusing, metaphor ... As she compares men to vegetable soup and women to pots, with no other purpose than helping men be the best soup they can be, we wonder, what is the role of women in men's lives?
"Men are like this vegetable soup. You can't put them on a plate or eat them off a counter. So women are the pot. They heat them up, hold them, contain them. Who wants to be a pot? Who the hell said we're not soup?"
Where are we in 2010? I thought we got past this 40 years ago!
My emphasis in red. These all sound like complaints to me about female feelings of oppression or restriction: no other purpose, who the hell wants to, I thought we got past this.
I just haven't gotten into it because I don't understand the pot analogy in the first place.
I still don't get it. Maybe I need to go back and re-read it.
Try asking 2Mares -- she seemed to understand it just fine, so I don't think it was my "mushy" example or any of my reasoning and I suspect you're just being purposely obtuse. In fact, I'd say your responses were actually a pretty good example of the very thing of which I was speaking.
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