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Then wouldn't the solution to stop trying to condition folks this way? I mean the reason that tradition exist in the first place is because back then the man was sole provider and had higher income regardless so it wasn't a point to be argued about. So even now that a women could possibly earn more than a man she is dating he still has to pay for a date?
Unless there's a huge income difference, yes.
Also, Like Jetjockey said, the women are now taking on traditional roles and equal roles...another reason why I say the man always pays. I'll be damned if I have to split the bill all the time, work hard and keep house for everyone in the household. NO WAY. I used to be the type that would insist on at least paying my share and those guys always felt undermined and would say "no, I'm the man! you never ever pay". Now I just let the guy pay becuase I feel I deserve it (not in an arrogant way..just that I deserve to be treated nicely), he's a man, and cause I don't want to undermine him. Not only that, but I live in a town/state that has mostly male friendly jobs: construction, military, engineering (raytheon is a BIG one), railroad, trucking, Border patrol, so for me (or most women here) to keep up with and exceed the income of men here, I have to move!
Why didn't you dump her? That's your own fault for giving into it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetJockey
I would agree with you...but in most cases I've seen the woman takes on the traditional roles as well as the 'equal' roles. In my last relationship, I cooked, cleaned, shopped, planned menus AND paid my way (and most of his).
How is that fair?
If a man wants to pay, I'd be more than happy to take over the more traditional roles...unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that most men expect women to be 'equal' AND 'traditional' at the same time.
Do you see the irony in these two posts? I'm not picking at you, I promise. I'm just wondering if I'm the only one who sees it. If anything, I'm rooting for you since you've finally moved to a larger city since I've long wondered if the small town was your hurdle.
Do you see the irony in these two posts? I'm not picking at you, I promise. I'm just wondering if I'm the only one who sees it. If anything, I'm rooting for you since you've finally moved to a larger city since I've long wondered if the small town was your hurdle.
Of course
I've explained it before...I take 100% of the blame for being in an abusive relationship. I should have left, but it was such a nice change to have someone want to be in a relationship with me that I just dealt with it far longer than I should.
It does bother me that that's basically the only relationship I've ever been in, though.
I've explained it before...I take 100% of the blame for being in an abusive relationship. I should have left, but it was such a nice change to have someone want to be in a relationship with me that I just dealt with it far longer than I should.
It does bother me that that's basically the only relationship I've ever been in, though.
Thanks for clarifying. I don't know you, yet I am rooting for you more than you know. I've read your posts on this forum for probably 3 years (even before I registered) and have always looked forward to the day you find what you're seeking because you seem sincere. I hope the move to Boston is that leap forward.
The solution for both scenarios is for the people who feel they are getting the bad end of the deal to stand up and not allow this to happen. Women should not be forced to play both equal and traditional roles, and men who insist on paying should be told with a smile that she prefers to pay her own way.
If both the man and the woman agree that him paying is the best arrangement for THEIR relationship, good for them. But people shouldn't bash those who prefer a more equal arrangement, or the "whoever invites, pays" arrangement.
Consider, however, that going against the "men pay" (sexism) or "whoever asks, pays" (etiquette) mindsets differs for the person doing the asking and the person doing the declining. It's very easy to graciously say, "Oh no, let me get it" or any of the other things you suggest. It's not easy for the "inviter" to make his or her financial intentions known up front, making it clear that the other person is not a guest and is expected to pay his or her own way. Do you have any suggestions about how to do that?
Also, Like Jetjockey said, the women are now taking on traditional roles and equal roles...another reason why I say the man always pays. I'll be damned if I have to split the bill all the time, work hard and keep house for everyone in the household. NO WAY. I used to be the type that would insist on at least paying my share and those guys always felt undermined and would say "no, I'm the man! you never ever pay". Now I just let the guy pay becuase I feel I deserve it (not in an arrogant way..just that I deserve to be treated nicely), he's a man, and cause I don't want to undermine him. Not only that, but I live in a town/state that has mostly male friendly jobs: construction, military, engineering (raytheon is a BIG one), railroad, trucking, Border patrol, so for me (or most women here) to keep up with and exceed the income of men here, I have to move!
Why is traditional or equal are the only choices. Why cant people just do what works for them. Also why is your man not helping in the house I grew where everyone was working a keeping the house together. Honestly why would you be with a man who expects traditional and equal. I can see why you feel that way because your from traditional blue collar area and think you and Jet came from those places so I see why you that way. The only guys that would feel that way are traditional guys so that may be the thing but to say that should the rule for all men is pushing it. I think its a matter of your location.
I personally disagree that a man should pay for every date. I don't believe in any should's that men and women have to do to show they love each other as a whole general rule. Like I said it made sense back in the day because it was practical the chances of the women making more her man was low or non existent.
There is just to many issue about power balance in traditional relationships that I feel defeats the purpose of a relationship.
Wow, this is one marathon thread. Here is my perspective. First date, guy always pays (yes, always). After that it is a bit more up in the air. For me, if he's asking me to do XYZ, he's paying. So with the guy I'm seeing the first date he asked me out for drinks and paid. The second date he asked me to the movies, and paid. Mind you, with these first two dates I didn't even pretend to reach for my wallet. Third date (not really a date but more of hanging out) he invited me over to a get-together at his place with some friends. The 4th date was dinner where I suggested the restaurant. I paid for the 4th date even though he offered to pay, about 3 times (and actually ended up contributing $20 to the over all bill of $100- place was cash only). Mind you, I live in NYC so drinks and going to the movies cost just about as much as the dinner. With subsequent dates, he's been paying- but the dates have been mostly at his suggestion. I'm fine with that (LOL) but let's say I suggest we go do XYZ, I would feel inclined to pay for both (like in the case of "let's go see this show, I'll find us tickets"). I know from what he pays in rent, he makes a comfortable salary so it will be interesting to see how the "who pays for what" pans out as we continue dating.
Why is traditional or equal are the only choices. Why cant people just do what works for them. Also why is your man not helping in the house I grew where everyone was working a keeping the house together. Honestly why would you be with a man who expects traditional and equal. I can see why you feel that way because your from traditional blue collar area and think you and Jet came from those places so I see why you that way. The only guys that would feel that way are traditional guys so that may be the thing but to say that should the rule for all men is pushing it. I think its a matter of your location.
I personally disagree that a man should pay for every date. I don't believe in any should's that men and women have to do to show they love each other as a whole general rule. Like I said it made sense back in the day because it was practical the chances of the women making more her man was low or non existent.
There is just to many issue about power balance in traditional relationships that I feel defeats the purpose of a relationship.
I don't live with my boyfriend but he stays with me often enough that I already know what I'd be faced with. I even joked one day when he didn't put the toilet seat down "hey thanks for putting the toilet seat down!" and he ran to the bathroom to put it down but it didn't stick. I'm not going to nag, that's pointless. This is a drastic change for me since my ex not only paid for everything, but when he stayed over, he would make my bed and clean up after himself without me asking! That and I'm not going to live with someone I'm not even engaged to. Maybe I'm weird in finding that disrespectful but it is, to me. also, its not really a blue collar thing. Most white collar guys here are also traditional and always pay for the woman or get creative about dates if they can't afford it. they would rather get creative than make a woman pay. that, and its not like I never pay for anything. I'm not some kind of princess. If I'm out and am getting things for us to eat or do, since I'm not with him, I pay, even on my low income and I don't ask for money to cover it. I just call it my treat and my way of being respectful to his efforts. Also, its not a conservative vs. liberal thing. I've seen guys in California (where its supposedly super liberal) pay for their dates/female friends (although I don't see paying for female friends as really necessary) all the time! This whole, guys pay some of the time thing, is a completely new world to me! I've never seen it in real life until I met my boyfriend.
Consider, however, that going against the "men pay" (sexism) or "whoever asks, pays" (etiquette) mindsets differs for the person doing the asking and the person doing the declining. It's very easy to graciously say, "Oh no, let me get it" or any of the other things you suggest. It's not easy for the "inviter" to make his or her financial intentions known up front, making it clear that the other person is not a guest and is expected to pay his or her own way. Do you have any suggestions about how to do that?
Good points, Julia. The way I've handled that in my own life is to pay the full bill when I extended the invite. I rarely invite platonic female friends out, so this is an easy one for me. With male friends, it's typically understood that I'm not paying his bill, but in the rare instances he doesn't attempt to pay, I'll do it since I extended the invite.
I always try to pay my own way, even when I'm invited. I pull out my wallet and give the person a chance to tell me, "oh no, let me get it". If they don't, then I pay my own way, no harm no foul since I don't feel entitled.
There are some past instances where the person who invited me to dinner made no effort to pay any portion of the pill, most importantly, their own. This has happened in friendship, early dating, and business scenarios. At that point I lose respect for them, since they asked me to go to dinner but want me to pay their share. Depending on my future goals for that person, I'll either pay and say nothing, or I'll grab the bill, look for my total, place it in plain view (I usually pay cash, which avoids uncertainty of how much I'm paying with credit cards), all while not missing a beat in conversation. Most people will pull out their money at that point.
The few that let the waiter/waitress come back without placing any money will put them in an awkward situation where we're both looking at them with a confused look. The awkward scenario has very rarely happened, but most of the time it was with women trying to avoid paying yet riding the friendship zone fence. Restaurants don't help since many will bring a bill to a male/female table and place it in front of the man without asking if they want separate checks.
The only other way to handle it is to bring it up in playful conversation, as I do about many hard / taboo topics. Usually when a tangential topic raises an opportunity, I'll use a past experience or just ask with a smile: "Speaking of ______, I wanted to get your opinion on this topic I saw people arguing about online." This forum is a never ending source of conversational topic starters.
Last edited by Freedom123; 01-10-2013 at 02:52 PM..
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If anything, I'm rooting for you since you've finally moved to a larger city since I've long wondered if the small town was your hurdle.
