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And therein lies one of the problems, why these things tend to escalate from discussion to argument:
EVERY word must be catered to in its every subtlety and nuance.
It's well and good to say that men have held the power all along and abused it, easy to imply that women are the ones making things better -- but paraphrase it and we've got to backtrack, redo it all.
It's like those people who prefer exception to rule, those who want to fuss about every possible detail and variation until we "what if" ourselves to utter death.
Tsk, tsk, you are looking at it far too simplistically. I have spend some time reading history and economics. Many histories revolve around military power which of course completely disregards the finance behind it as one example. The gold coins paid to the legions were not see marching about the Roman world but legions would not have been were it not for finance.
If men have power what has power over men? How many times in history do I read of a woman whispering in a man's ear? How did John the Baptist lose his head? Why did Nero burn the Christians in pitch? How many other times do I see noble women guide their sons to the status of emperor or king?
Power was a matter of class, not sex. As usual, women tend to lag at the top but are not quite so miserable at the bottom as the worst of men.[/quote]
You bring up a good point, however, I believe that I have stated that you can't simply blame one gender for everything....that includes early times. If Cleopatra was a viscious, vindictive wench, that doesn't mean that all women should be seen in the same light, does it? As for your statement "women are not quite so miserable at the bottom as the worst of men"... you don't know this... you THINK this..... you PERCEIVE it to be true, but it's all a matter of your perception/opinion. You don't know HOW miserable some of these women are, any more that I do. That statement is unbelievably gender-biased.
That statement can be equated to some made on here earlier about "rape survivors". Every rape experience can not be compared. One person's experience may be far more horrific than another's. That's like saying that a teenager, who had been raped/molested repeatedly, for years, can be compared to the 23 yr old who got drunk at a bar, went to an after-hour party, and had a guy rape her when she was passed out. They are both rape survivors...but in no way can they be seen as similar experiences that they can both "get over".
Hi beachmel,
Its not gender bias. Its a bias I have from reading history for 25 years. You also are looking at anecdotes at the individual level. Does rape compare to an 18 year old prisoner of war tortured to death?
As my female business law prof told me, in court, we hate men. The perpetrator/victim bias is the mere expression of the dominance a low status woman has over her low status male peer. The jury of both men and women will be biased against an unknown man just as you have this bias. I have this bias. When a buss load of men die I hardly care whereas when it happens to women, I am horrified. Its the species trying to preserve itself. The reason you don't see this is because these men are invisible to you. Look at every species and it is the runt male that is the most superfluous and expendable. That is why widows and orphans receive aid and not the most miserable of men. We are not shocked and horrified at low status men dying in war or otherwise. Ironically it was a feminist like Florence Nightingale who observed this very thing in Crimea. Nature itself creates 106 boys to 100 girls. We are diluted and nature anticipates male attrition on the fringe.
However at the top women cannot seem to excel not only because of men, but because of her own sex. Men did not make the Beatles. It was the women who screamed for them the most. Until you understand this, you will always be mystified.
The greatest burden is felt by high status women and low status men. It always has and likely always will just as we see feminists wail along with the shy reticent beta males in the corner.
And the even goes for the treatment of women. You may have all these rights to have a career, own property, and vote, and that's all cool. But as for today, the admiration, desire, symathy, empathy, love, and compassion for women has been drained away from the hearts of most men.
No it hasnt been. There is still as much love between men and women as there has always been. There have always been women haters.
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And no, it wasn't when women wanted to get out of the kitchen and make the same income as men; that's fine! It was when most women wanted to have control of the entire world yet expect everyone to treat them like "princess" while they carry the spoiled little brat attitude complex!
Who is that. I dont know any women that want to control the world. The attitude you speak of is not different than a powerful man that wants to be treated like a king and is a complete ahole. There are good and bad people in both genders.
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And another thing, was the intention of the neo-feminist movement to create admiration for the "heiress wh*re" realizing that these tramps are one of the main reasons why women are less respected now than they were back when most of them were just housewives?
Just curoius, are you a older woman that you would know what life was like in the 70's, 80's and 90's.
One would think that if there is now admiration for "tramps" then overall women would be more respected than they were when they were "just housewives"
Its not gender bias. Its a bias I have from reading history for 25 years. You also are looking at anecdotes at the individual level. Does rape compare to an 18 year old prisoner of war tortured to death?
As my female business law prof told me, in court, we hate men. The perpetrator/victim bias is the mere expression of the dominance a low status woman has over her low status male peer. The jury of both men and women will be biased against an unknown man just as you have this bias. I have this bias. When a buss load of men die I hardly care whereas when it happens to women, I am horrified. Its the species trying to preserve itself. The reason you don't see this is because these men are invisible to you.Look at every species and it is the runt male that is the most superfluous and expendable. That is why widows and orphans receive aid and not the most miserable of men. We are not shocked and horrified at low status men dying in war or otherwise. Ironically it was a feminist like Florence Nightingale who observed this very thing in Crimea. Nature itself creates 106 boys to 100 girls. We are diluted and nature anticipates male attrition on the fringe.
However at the top women cannot seem to excel not only because of men, but because of her own sex. Men did not make the Beatles. It was the women who screamed for them the most. Until you understand this, you will always be mystified.
The greatest burden is felt by high status women and low status men. It always has and likely always will just as we see feminists wail along with the shy reticent beta males in the corner.
Here is where you and I are vastly different. I am EQUALLY as horrified when men AND women die horrible deaths. I HAVE no boundaries there, gwynedd1....none, whatsoever! As for "runt" males...it is my very nature to want to protect them. I am one of those who are appalled at greed and selfishness.....at the coldness and insensitivity of people. Out and out cruelty and apathy of the human condition sickens me. It always has. Do I feel too much? Some might think so...but SOMEONE has to!
Quality of living for whom? All we have to do is look at the lifestyles of certain classes of people to see what is happening to the world. Do people need multiple homes? Do people need 52" or greater television sets? Do childless couples, who live in the city need 6-passenger, gas guzzling 4WD SUVs? Do people need 6 and 7-figure homes, which are furnished with $100,000 + furnishings? Do these same people need $50,000 kitchens when they don't even COOK!? The trouble with people today is that they have a difficult time separating their wants from their needs! The trouble with so many people, is that they've stomped on those who are simply "making ends meet", so that they can afford all of the ridiculous, non-essential crap they have to purchase to feed their egos! It's all a matter of perspective here. Whose quality of life is taking the biggest hit? You can bet it's not the folks who have already been living paycheck to paycheck. LOL....sorry for the rant here, but think about it.....
Actually this shift in acquiring bigger and better possessions happened due to the cheap credit available to anyone with a pulse. That and the sense of entitlement and envy most Americans have - if my classmate has a big house, I want a big house too! These days are over and we are in the process of resetting ourselves in terms of credit, hence the number of foreclosures, far lower car sales, houses siting on the market for a long time, and the implosion of the home improvement market.
Last edited by OngletNYC; 01-20-2010 at 11:20 AM..
Actually this shift in acquiring bigger and better possessions happened due to the cheap credit available to anyone with a pulse. That and the sense of entitlement and envy most Americans have - if my classmate has a bid house, I want a big house too. These days are over and we are in the process of resetting ourselves in terms of credit, hence the number of foreclosures, far lower car sales, houses siting on the market for a long time, and the implosion of the home improvement market.
It doesn't help that Americans' definition of success is measured in the acquistion of things. This is not helped by even the older generation bragging about their son's big house/car/ perfect family....even if it's all just hanging on credit. It's the mindset, and feminism probably pushed it along by economics of both people working, and pressure of consumerism to keep the economy going, forcing us to want and buy more and more. People who don't live like that are not respected, or they are viewed as lower class, even lazy.
Wasn't denying the "how"; was in fact admitting it, just wasn't listing the details.
Hi Urban Sasquatch,
When I responding to a post, I am not necessarily rejecting your premise. I am just adding context. We under appreciate that much of how humanity arrived where it is today was not by choice.
It doesn't help that Americans' definition of success is measured in the acquistion of things. This is not helped by even the older generation bragging about their son's big house/car/ perfect family....even if it's all just hanging on credit. It's the mindset, and feminism probably pushed it along by economics of both people working, and pressure of consumerism to keep the economy going, forcing us to want and buy more and more. People who don't live like that are not respected, or they are viewed as lower class, even lazy.
Sad thing is, the effects of our rampant consumerism is that our country is being given away to China piece by piece... But that's a different discussion.
First I have to say that the feminists, despite themselves, actually had some things right. When the world became a safe enough place for women to leave -The Cave- and take a place alongside men on the outside, it was only right that it should happen.
It was the process that tore us apart.
It was men, after all, that brought the environment under control so that women could safely move about and go make money. It was also men that saw the justice in allowing women to vote, own land, become educated and pursue gainful employment, with or without a man. So it was men that did the natural and just thing by handing women their equal status.
But this came with two rather severe problems.
One, since it was men who paid the real price so that women could walk out of that cave, a simple thank you would have been an appropriate response. Instead, by and large, women spit on us as they exited. And many of them continue to do so until this day.
We call it male bashing, but what it really represents is a major -**** you- in return for a lot of blood and sweat on their behalf.
The other, and much more severe, problem is that womens liberation should have resulted in mens as well, and it hasnt. The pendulum that should have swung naturally in our direction, freeing us from the obligations to women that should have come with their emancipation, has stuck in place. It leaves us with a perpetual state of equality plus chivalry, with women enjoying all the perks of both gender roles, none of the mandated responsibilities, and men just stuck with the burdens.
All this simply because men are just too willing to take it.
That’s why you have been watching Oprah and Dr. Phil, and why you read magazines like COSMO for advice on relationships. You’re yearning for answers, and in fact you have probably spent a fair amount of yours or your man’s money chasing after them. Your bookshelves are filled with everything from John Gray to Gloria Steinem and it hasn’t done anything but leave you wondering if there are any good men left in the world at all. You are on an unending quest for an elusive solution, and you don’t see anything promising in sight.
It’s not entirely your fault.
From the time you were born, and I am going to put this in bold italics because it is very, very important, the whole world has been lying to you. And when all you hear is lies, you can only get the net result of where you are right now:
F*cked up and clueless as to what to do about it. The only thing you are sure of is that none of your problems are of your own making.
You see, all these lies have convoluted your expectations. Your sense of self-importance has been inflated to the point of psychic mutilation; your sense of responsibility proportionally reduced. It starts in childhood with unicorns and Prince Charming, Daddy’s little princess and sugar and spice. Yes, you are what little girls are made of. And while that as all sweet and gooey, it pretty much screws the pooch when it comes to creating a tenable relationship with a grown man.
Being Daddy’s little princess is a cozy role for a child, but a p*ss poor ambition for a grown woman. And while the world pinched your cheek and cooed at you in your youth, it should have told you at some point in your life to take the tiara off and grow up.
But the world did just the opposite.
By the time you were a teenager, hormonal boys were telling you whatever they thought you wanted to hear just to get in your pants, or at least cop a feel of your t*ts. They would tolerate any amount of your smugness and indifference just for a chance to be near you. And with this, they continued to enable you and reinforced the illusion of your flawlessness. It made you feel powerful, important. Obsequious comment by obsequious comment, they helped you perfect the expectation that life would never demand from you humility or fairness. They taught you what your fathers did, that respect was not to be earned, but handed to you, by a man, regardless of your true nature.
And for years you lived with this as a constant, as there was always at least a few guys hanging around trying grovel their way into giving you the high hard one.
You could have a man and toss him away any time you wanted and you knew it. As a result you only gave attention to men who told you what you wanted to hear, and performed for you as expected. And even when you did follow your primal instincts into riding b*tch on a Harley with a guy who didn’t spoon feed you bullsh*t, you made it your mission to mold him, too, into treating you like a princess. Often you succeeded.
And you ate it up like a beggar at a buffet.
Then you got a little older and feminism picked up where fathers and suitors left off. You learned that you were not only a princess with all the entitlements that come with that, but that you were also a victim of history; that all this entitlement that had been lavished on you was really oppression, and that you were owed even more.
And what’s more, you were able to quickly deduce that you could hang on to all those “oppressive” entitlements and take advantage of all the new doors being opened at the same time. All while you were more and more deeply entrenching yourself in the idea that you were not getting everything you deserved; that some man was responsible for it; that some man should fix it.
Interesting take..... You know, even though I'm a woman... I have to agree with some of this. Fortunately,(I guess), I was never fed the BS by my father....and was never treated as a princess. He knew what life was really like and made darn sure to prepare me for it....that's love!
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