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You make it sound as though we invented slavery. If we're supposed to be looking at history, then shouldn't we recognize that slavery was widely practiced, often by the very tribes from which colonial Americans took their slaves?
You still haven't addressed that the women in "slave" positions apparently didn't question their lot or realize anything was wrong, OR you're suggesting that NO man in NO society historically had ever payed any attention whatsoever, that they were all immoral and/or powerless until then?
Why, oh WHY isn't this jiving for me? WHAT is it I'm missing?!?
What are you missing??
Well, here's one thing:
"""No, not for all, 7th century Ireland was more advanced on equal rights than 20th century US. There have been "feminists" (although not called that) for centuries. But look at the political scene...how far does speaking truth to power get you...and how fast?
Look at this forum...the ancient sexist traditions are STILL alive. Tradition dies hard."""
AND there have been MANY people, men and women, over the centuries who have had "feminist" ideas and wrote about them...not EVERYONE was ignorant.
"""No, not for all, 7th century Ireland was more advanced on equal rights than 20th century US. There have been "feminists" (although not called that) for centuries. But look at the political scene...how far does speaking truth to power get you...and how fast? Look at this forum...the ancient sexist traditions are STILL alive. Tradition dies hard."""
AND there have been MANY people, men and women, over the centuries who have had "feminist" ideas and wrote about them...not EVERYONE was ignorant.
You just don't want to admit what history shows.
Here's what I'll admit, and it's a real answer:
Civilizations have risen and fallen, empires have come and gone. Sometimes men have been in power, sometimes women -- and even I will admit more often it's been Men than Women.
Some civilizations have succeeded, some have been more enlightened than others. Some have revered women, others have vilified or at least decried them. Some have done the same to men but those have been short-lived and less successful historically.
The bottom line is that YOU live in the here and now, and YOU hate what you see, while someone else sees something else, and either hates it or loves it.
The bottom line is that YOU are waving a flag, a banner, voicing a rallying cry, and you despise those who disagree with you -- which is fine, perfectly reasonable and entirely your prerogative.
And that is ALL the qualifying answer you'll ever get from anyone, whether you agree with it or not.
But plenty of Women's Studies (ahem) clearly indicate superiority of women in so many ways -- HOW could all of this have come to pass? And WHAT changed in the 20th century so that women managed to overturn these things which apparently had lasted for thousands of years at the hands of evil men?
Are you saying it took thousands of years for women to figure out what was wrong and speak up? Thousands of years to figure out a way around whatever it was men did to keep you down?
Hi Urban Sasquatch,
Speaking of those many years, modern society has advanced so far we have forgotten that overcoming nature's efficiency is a sliver in time. People make some assumption that the human race could afford to do anything but arrange their community to do anything but survive.
Take civilization away with it shelter and nutrition, and women die in droves at about 1-10 in childbirth just as we see in modern times(Mozambican women) when this is stripped away. I am certain it was common. That is why men are so "superficial" at selecting the healthiest mate he can find. Our species is a collision of large brain cases and long distance upright walking necessitating narrow hips. Our women pay a heavy price. That is why women were not put in any social spear head. It is a luxury to "emancipate" women in society and Western culture evolved to recognize this. Thus I reject the "oppression hypothesis of modern feminism.
It is not the power that women have that offends me. I am only offended by the ignorance and presumptuousness of a modern feminist. I just don't enjoy the company of silly, reactionary and unreflected people.
Urban
I know you like to argue just for the sake of arguement, but you must realize that change does not occur in a *Poof*. It takes years of sacrifice, battles, imprisonment and death to accomplish social change.
Civilizations have risen and fallen, empires have come and gone. Sometimes men have been in power, sometimes women -- and even I will admit more often it's been Men than Women.
Hi Urban Sasquatch,
That is due to military power. Few civilian governments endured including Rome which devolved into a military government away from its civilian roots. The proscription of Cicero is a most descriptive case. When a women had military cache` she was followed as in Cleopatra and Zenobia of Palmyrene. Now that civilian governments have risen so have women with them.
It would obviously be difficult for a woman to rise through the ranks as did the barbarian emperor Maximinus.
Speaking of those many years, modern society has advanced so far we have forgotten that overcoming nature's efficiency is a sliver in time. People make some assumption that the human race could afford to do anything but arrange their community to do anything but survive.
Take civilization away with it shelter and nutrition, and women die in droves at about 1-10 in childbirth just as we see in modern times(Mozambican women) when this is stripped away. I am certain it was common. That is why men are so "superficial" at selecting the healthiest mate he can find. Our species is a collision of large brain cases and long distance upright walking necessitating narrow hips. Our women pay a heavy price. That is why women were not put in any social spear head. It is a luxury to "emancipate" women in society and Western culture evolved to recognize this. Thus I reject the "oppression hypothesis of modern feminism.
It is not the power that women have that offends me. I am only offended by the ignorance and presumptuousness of a modern feminist. I just don't enjoy the company of silly, reactionary and unreflected people.
Oh, dude, I realize this; it happens in even brief survival situations.
No, I just wanted to explore her view on history itself, see if it really was as negative as I was gathering.
I, for one, am perfectly aware that we are the SAME as "Humans" and DIFFERENT as Men and Women; each with some similarities which allow us to cross certain roles, while also holding differences which maintain a kind of role-specificity.
Women who try to BE men are in for a rude surprise, while men who try to BE women will find themselves disappointed.
WHY am I naturally a protector? Because I have a barrel-chest and broad shoulders designed for hard labor, provision, hunting... in short, for tasks requiring POWER.
Why are women more naturally geared toward the nurture related with childbirth? Because they have breasts which feed, hips which carry and allow for birth.
Some differences are impossible to overcome; even women who learn to work hard and lift heavy loads and to FIGHT will not compete with men as a whole in that arena; and I'll never, ever be able to give birth.
"Well, technology has changed all that! Soon we won't need men at ALL!"
Sugar, if you think technology will stop with replicating sperm and the magical variety of the Y-chromosome, you're so short-sighted you've failed to realize you're as dispensible as I am. If sperm can be replicated, so can an egg and a uterus, it's just a question of doing so.
You need us as much as we need you -- period. Get over yourselves.
Urban
I know you like to argue just for the sake of arguement, but you must realize that change does not occur in a *Poof*. It takes years of sacrifice, battles, imprisonment and death to accomplish social change.
You'd be wrong here. I DON'T like to argue for the sake of argument; I like to argue for the sake of learning OR for the sake of teaching. But sometimes people won't learn OR teach, and that's the luck of the draw.
As for *poof*, yes, I'm well aware that any evolution either takes short, rapid and PAINFUL leaps or takes long, tedious amounts of time to affect change. Only an idiot would pretend otherwise.
My whole thing with the illustration of *poof* is that some radicals (I do not use the word lightly) would like to pretend that the world is different than it really is, and use a lack of education or thought on the parts of others to promote ideas which are meant to vilify -- and in this case, to vilify men.
They want to pretend we lack love, compassion, nurturing qualities; they want to pretend we're interested only in the profit margin and NOTHING else, that we're so dastardly we'll crush others underfoot with utter disregard for human life or dignity.
The very notion that "men are all that is wrong with the world" is so morbidly stupid it's nigh unfathomable, and yet we see that very thing promoted on a continuous basis. If men were as bad as we're led to believe, then EVERY accomplishment throughout history has actually been at the behest and direction of women while somehow men have managed a complete cover-up.
No, I'm NOT stupid enough to think such things; but I love to poke fun at those who are.
That is due to military power. Few civilian governments endured including Rome which devolved into a military government away from its civilian roots. The proscription of Cicero is a most descriptive case. When a women had military cache` she was followed as in Cleopatra and Zenobia of Palmyrene. Now that civilian governments have risen so have women with them.
It would obviously be difficult for a woman to rise through the ranks as did the barbarian emperor Maximinus.
Wasn't denying the "how"; was in fact admitting it, just wasn't listing the details.
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Well, I may be a cow (according to you) but YOU sure have the Bull---- !