Jesus was FAR different than most people think! (Nazareth, New Testament, Hebrew)
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It's interesting to follow Mickiel's mode of argument.
323 demands proof that Jesus didn't resurrect. Boxcar listed a series of symptomatic visual appearances NOT shown by Jesus as a resurrected corpse (though of course the marks of crucifixion were there)
Micki's response? "The stinking ghettos all over the world have a hope that you cannot remove."
The stinking ghettoes are welcome to their delusions, though getting off their butts and giving the place a scrub rather than sitting and hoping might do more to remove the stench, but what has this to do with the historicity of Jesus? It is doing what Micki accuses us of doing - ignoring evidence. But what evidence does Micki have FOR Jesus?
"I'll give you my proof; if he had not risen, then belief in him would have died right then."
The response is to point out that other (presumably untrue) religions have survived well enough.
Micki then argues that his miracle is much better (which isn't the point - that those religions have persisted even though the claims were less amazing defeats Micki's point, but of course he has changed the point)
"These pale in significance to Jesus history, or are you sugessting that they overshadow him? None can even compare to Jesus reality, your arguement must surpass the man, and none of your ilk has ever been able to do that."
The point being apparently that if we can't dent Micki's faith in Jesus we should go away...as Micki does in a very graphic stamping out of the debating chamber
"Come back to the table when you have something that can put out his light."
I won't repeat #336 or I'd be accused of mockery, but after trying the 'I am not actually a Christian' ploy (which is of course beside the point) Micki tries the bones of Caiaphas.
The thing is that as has been argued in respect of all Micki's evidence is that Caiaphas certainly existed, but did he slap Jesus? It is actually as unlikely as John having him prophecy in a spirit of ungodly plotting against God. It is a propaganda touch added by the Christian gospel - writers to make Jesus seem more martyred and the Jews more vicious. It is not only unhistorical and unbelievable, but very unpleasant.
I don't want to be nasty about Micki who is a well -meaning guy who tries to take facts on board - when they can be fitting into his belief -framework, and you have to admire his persistence, and we do at least get to show that Herod's tower, Pilate's coinage and Caiaphas' bone -box may prove the historicity of the setting of the gospel story, but that alone does not prove the gospel story true.
Like Nozzferatu's example of Bourne or James Bond or Robin Hood or Sherlock Holmes, if we don't know beforehand, can we say whether they are based on fact or not? Even a fictitious story based on an actual person? In fact Holmes WAS based on a real person, though he was not a detective and the stories on their internal evidence are not really believable.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 05-13-2012 at 03:25 AM..
It's interesting to follow Mickiel's mode of argument.
323 demands proof that Jesus didn't resurrect. Boxcar listed a series of symptomatic visual appearances NOT shown by Jesus as a resurrected corpse (though of course the marks of crucifixion were there)
Micki's response? "The stinking ghettos all over the world have a hope that you cannot remove."
The stinking ghettoes are welcome to their delusions, though getting off their butts and giving the place a scrub rather than sitting and hoping might do more to remove the stench, but what has this to do with the historicity of Jesus? It is doing what Micki accuses us of doing - ignoring evidence. But what evidence does Micki have FOR Jesus?
"I'll give you my proof; if he had not risen, then belief in him would have died right then."
The response is to point out that other (presumably untrue) religions have survived well enough.
Micki then argues that his miracle is much better (which isn't the point - that those religions have persisted even though the claims were less amazing defeats Micki's point, but of course he has changed the point)
"These pale in significance to Jesus history, or are you sugessting that they overshadow him? None can even compare to Jesus reality, your arguement must surpass the man, and none of your ilk has ever been able to do that."
The point being apparently that if we can't dent Micki's faith in Jesus we should go away...as Micki does in a very graphic stamping out of the debating chamber
"Come back to the table when you have something that can put out his light."
I won't repeat #336 or I'd be accused of mockery, but after trying the 'I am not actually a Christian' ploy (which is of course beside the point) Micki tries the bones of Caiaphas.
The thing is that as has been argued in respect of all Micki's evidence is that Caiaphas certainly existed, but did he slap Jesus? It is actually as unlikely as John having him prophecy in a spirit of ungodly plotting against God. It is a propaganda touch added by the Christian gospel - writers to make Jesus seem more martyred and the Jews more vicious. It is not only unhistorical and unbelievable, but very unpleasant.
I don't want to be nasty about Micki who is a well -meaning guy who tries to take facts on board - when they can be fitting into his belief -framework, and you have to admire his persistence, and we do at least get to show that Herod's tower, Pilate's coinage and Caiaphas' bone -box may prove the historicity of the setting of the gospel story, but that alone does not prove the gospel story true.
Like Nozzferatu's example of Bourne or James Bond or Robin Hood or Sherlock Holmes, if we don't know beforehand, can we say whether they are based on fact or not? Even a fictitious story based on an actual person? In fact Holmes WAS based on a real person, though he was not a detective and the stories on their internal evidence are not really believable.
You don't need evidence to be an Atheist, you just need to ignore it.
The stinking ghettos all over the world have a hope that you cannot remove.
Why not instead of "Hoping" and "Wishing" and asking someone to come down from the sky and rescue you and fix everything, you just man up and do something about all the stinking ghettos, poverty, hunger, pain and suffering? If your religion cannot fix that, then it is worthless. We already have two major political parties that have failed, not to mention a handful of minor ones, we have talk about how great things will be in the afterlife. get real. Seems to me that the major religions and the major political arms of the country have therefore failed.
This life, this reality, this experience IS REAL!!!!!! It is tangable , measurable, and ALIVE!!!! Your talk about your imaginay friend returning? Where is he? Why is he not here helping out? What are his followers doing about all the stinking ghettos? Where is their hope? Where do they get fed when they send their kids to bed hungry at night? Hoping their imaginary friend comes to take them away? How about instead of promising some fantasy, how about you get to work doing something about it?
If you want to spend your life suffering with others and dreaming about some dead guy's return, hey have fun. But dont think you are going to drag any of us down with you. We don't need to be saved. We need to work on saving ourselves, our families, and our communities from the harsh realities of this world, which, unlike your Jesus myths, are real. That is the reality of the situation.
...stories that are only found in the Bible and some other religious works. No objective, verifiable evidence that any of that happened and much objective, verifiable evidence that it didn't.
We do. That's why we are atheists.
Evidence about the historic Jesus is not in the Bible. He was a real person, rabbie, prophet, that walked the earth. if your going to de-bunk this sort of history, which includes Jesus. his followers, church leaders, scholars, etc. etc. along with anything relating to biblical history, then you might as well rebuke all of history.
The Saints from 2000 years ago along with our modern day Saints are real human beings, blessed with special graces, etc. Yes we have miracles and medical science can and wont ever explain these things, just like they only can hypothosize on the Earths origins.
This is a fact.
I dont want to debate with atheists, instead I should Pray to God regarding your soul. The Christian Man/God called Jesus. At the end of times we all shall see.
I dont want to debate with atheists, instead I should Pray to God regarding your soul. The Christian Man/God called Jesus. At the end of times we all shall see.
Sarah
Then you should restrict your posting to the Christianity forum, or better yet, stay off discussion forums altogether. There is no point in flinging your opinions about on a discussion forum, like little bits of monkey poo, if you are not interested in actually discussing them.
If you do believe in an omnipotent god, asking him to change my mind is likely to be far more effective than flailing about with unsupported opinions and refusing to actually examine your own assertions. As an added benefit, it is certainly less annoying to me...
Then you should restrict your posting to the Christianity forum, or better yet, stay off discussion forums altogether. There is no point in flinging your opinions about on a discussion forum, like little bits of monkey poo, if you are not interested in actually discussing them.
If you do believe in an omnipotent god, asking him to change my mind is likely to be far more effective than flailing about with unsupported opinions and refusing to actually examine your own assertions. As an added benefit, it is certainly less annoying to me...
-NoCapo
What he said Sarah ^^^
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