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It wasn't the contraception in and of itself that was the problem in the story; it was the disobedience of the law to produce offspring for the deceased brother.
Interesting take; but no.
This is clearly included into the bible to teach US that GOD desires to be; and God demands to be in charge of all life and death issues.
Genesis 4:1 The man had intercourse with his wife Eve, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain. 'I have acquired a man with the help of Yahweh,' [GOD] she said.
Birth is Controlled by God
John.1 Verses 12 to 14: “But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. “
God as Creator of all things certainly has the right to dictate what is; and what is not acceptable moral behavior. And that my friend is one of the Infallible mandates of Matthew 28: 18-20
GOOGLE "the history of contraception" and discover that it is a quite recent innovation. One that I would add has led to unheard of numbers getting Divorced; ha d DRIVEN the now multi-BILLION Dollar porn industry; and because of its emphaism on self [I term it :MEISM"]; has led to Abortion [MURDER OF THE Holy Innocents] as some sort of "right." OMG! And has also provided the window of opportunity to legalize same sex "marriages"; which God does not even accept as "Unions."
It takes "WE" and converts it; turns it upside down to "ME"! No good, NO GOOD can come of it in the NORMS of married sexual activity.
Contraception also encourages sexual activity outside of marriage; that too is a Grievous Mortal [1 John 5: 16-17] offence; a misuse of our sexuality which our Creator specifies is for reproduction of the Species:
Gen.1 [22] And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." [28] And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."
[1] And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth.
[7] And you, be fruitful and multiply, bring forth abundantly on the earth and multiply in it."
Gen.17 [20] As for Ish'mael, I have heard you; behold, I will bless him and make him fruitful and multiply him exceedingly; he shall be the father of twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation.
Gen.26 [24] And the LORD appeared to him the same night and said, "I am the God of Abraham your father; fear not, for I am with you and will bless you and multiply your descendants for my servant Abraham's sake."
Gen.28 [3] God Almighty bless you and make you fruitful and multiply you, that you may become a company of peoples.
Gen.35
[11] And God said to him, "I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall come from you, and kings shall spring from you.
Gen.48 [4] and said to me, `Behold, I will make you fruitful, and multiply you, and I will make of you a company of peoples, and will give this land to your descendants after you for an everlasting possession.'
Lev.26 [9] And I will have regard for you and make you fruitful and multiply you, and will confirm my covenant with you.
Deut.7 [13] he will love you, bless you, and multiply you; he will also bless the fruit of your body and the fruit of your ground, your grain and your wine and your oil, the increase of your cattle and the young of your flock, in the land which he swore to your fathers to give you.
Deut.8 [1] "All the commandment which I command you this day you shall be careful to do, that you may live and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD swore to give to your fathers.
Deut.13 [17] None of the devoted things shall cleave to your hand; that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and show you mercy, and have compassion on you, and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers,
Deut.28 [63] And as the LORD took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the LORD will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you; and you shall be plucked off the land which you are entering to take possession of it.
Deut.30 [16] If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you this day, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you are entering to take possession of it.
Jer.23 [3] Then I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them, and I will bring them back to their fold, and they shall be fruitful and multiply.
Ezek.37 [26] I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will bless them and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
My friend; you're dispte is not withme; its not even with the RCC; its God Himself that users of contraception take on. NOT the best of ideas if one actually wishes to attain the Beatific Vision
The fact that they pray to mortals or saints as they like to call them.
Thanks for sharing that
I Do understand your point.
But please consider these facts:
Genesis 3:19
"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth, out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return."
After death ALL that remains of us are the very things that permit humanity alone to actually fulfill Genesis 1: 26-27: 26] And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. [27] And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them."
So it is Not "mortals" in the "present tense" that we "pray to." Which is a correct articulation; BUT a very misleading expression, none the same.
ALL Prayers by Catholics End with God! No excpetions.
If we interject and replace "Through" for "TO" we gain a much better; a truer understanding of of WHAT we Catholics are actually doing.
It is HIGHLY notable that this is a PERSONAL PIETY practice; NOT mandated by the RCC Even though it is taught and encouraged.
So why then do we Catholics do this?
We freely choose to do this because we KNOW that Mary and the Saints have been proven through the process of Canonization [how Saints are determined], which BTW includes one or more miracles; which means God has the Final say in this determination. . We also know from experience that it works! It REALLY does.
Saints are in the actual Presence of our God; and we are CONNECTED by what we term' "The Communion of the Saints" which consist of all of us still on earth, all those in Purgatory [a separate discussion point] And all the Saints [and saints too], in heaven. We're very much like a large close family.
The Saints then accept our prayer petition; then ADD THERE-OWN on top of them; and then present them personally to our God. This increasing their urgency.
Mary; the Mother of Jesus [Luke 1:26-35] is the Saint for often cited, and the prayer most often recited is the "Hail Mary"; which is solidly a biblically grounded prayer:
Hail Mary, [Lk. 1:28]
Full of Grace [Lk. 1:28]
The Lord is with thee [Lk 1:27]
Blessed are you among all women [Lk 1:42]
And Blessed in the fruit of your womb: Jesus [Lk. 1;42]
Holy Mary [Lk.1: 28]
Mother of God 1:35
Pray for us sinners [our catholic petition]
Now and at the hour of our death
Amen” [I BELIEVE!]
Now friend if your actual concern is that we Catholic ARE Idolaters; as we are often accused of in Grave error. [Slander]
Consider this:
Here we see GOD Commanding Moses to build for Him [God] Idols. Whats this all about?
Exod.25: 18, 20 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. [20] The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be
Num.21: 8-9 "And the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live".
The Lesson here; and the Lesson MISSED by those sharing in the accusations leveled against the RCC as idolaters; is that it is NOT "the idols"; it is the REASON for the idols that is of critical importance.
If and when[as DO ALL CATHOLIC intercessory prayers] have as their GOAL to GROW closer to Jesus; they ARE objectively GOOD!
It is when one turns to other "idols"; idols intended to compete with God that they are evil.
So my friend I pray that this clears up the issue for you?
=Mightyqueen801;42050789]Read up on the Syriac Orthodox Church, which traces itself back to Antioch, long before Rome took on Christianity, and uses the oldest known Christian liturgy. As someone once said in the local paper when a former pope was coming to visit the US, Catholics have to remember that St. Peter did not just show up in Rome, put on a big hat, and sit down in the basilica named for him. It took about four or five centuries for the office of pope to be established and for Rome to take its place as the primary representative city of WESTERN Christianity. Meanwhile, churches were long established in the Middle East, in Egypt and other North African places, in India, in China, and in Asia Minor. They did not look to the Roman Catholic Church for leadership.
It's a very complex story, but if you have any interest at all in Christian history and are up to reading a lengthy tome, I suggest Christianity, The First Three Thousand Years, by Diarmaid MacCulloch. It is a scholarly work of history rather than one designed to promote Christianity or any one branch of the faith.
And yes, I believe the Keating book you mentioned was the one I read! I bought it at a Catholic bookstore. Although I am not a fundamentalist, the book is written to help Catholics respond to fundamentalist attacks, because frankly, Roman Catholics often don't know why the Roman Catholic church does/believes what it does. I have a good friend, an Irish Catholic woman I would say walks closer to the walk of Christ than any other Christian I know. I used to ask her why the Catholic church believes this or that, and she did not know the answers. That book gave me the answers. Although it did not make me convert to Catholicism, the explanations made sense in the context of history and the development of the Church in the early centuries.
God bless you, too, Patrick.
Sincere thanks
Here my friend is what you're missing:
The Church foundation was Jerusalem Prior to being seated in Rome.
16] And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. [17] And seeing him they adored: but some doubted. [18] And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU: and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world"
Secondly is the Historical evidence of the GREAT EASTERN SCHISM; prior to which the ONLY Christian Church to exist anywhere in the entire world; was today's Catholic Church.
When I used the phrase "original poster," I was specifically referring to zthatzmanz28, as you can see if you check back to where I quoted him in Post #64, and not to you, Patrick. I know I hate it when non-Mormons take it upon themselves to "explain" Mormon doctrine to people, because 90% of the time, they get it wrong. Certain posters (including zthatzmanz28) have a habit of doing so. That's why, whenever a non-Catholic decides to "educate" people about Catholicism, I make it a point to verify whatever it is he said with a Catholic.
Once again, I am going to commend you for your tenacity, and it's obvious that you are trying to answer questions pretty thoroughly with RCC apologetics.
Yet, I don't care about any of your answers, because you haven't addressed a very fundamental issue. Why should we believe in your god or bible?
My dear friend,
Are you reading ALL of MY post?
I HAVE addressed both issues more than once already. HOWEVER if you can't find them; PLEASE let me know and I will do so again; just for you. EVERY Soul is important. We're approaching Thanks giving so I have family stuff to do too. BUT I'll look back to see if I still need to reply to you, God willing; AFTER you have checked bu previous post within this string.
Once again, I am going to commend you for your tenacity, and it's obvious that you are trying to answer questions pretty thoroughly with RCC apologetics.
Yet, I don't care about any of your answers, because you haven't addressed a very fundamental issue. Why should we believe in your god or bible?
My dear friend,
Are you reading ALL of MY post?
I HAVE addressed both issues more than once already. HOWEVER if you can't find them; PLEASE let me know and I will do so again; just for you. EVERY Soul is important. We're approaching Thanks giving so I have family stuff to do too. BUT I'll look back to see if I still need to reply to you, God willing; AFTER you have checked my previous post within this string.
It may take me a few days to get to it; but rest assurred I WILL provide the answers that you're seeking.
Sorry, using the bible to prove the bible is not a valid proof. Any book can be relatively internally consistent, and the NT writers certainly had access to the OT books. This allowed them to create stories that became self fulfilling prophecies. Additionally, the church fathers were able to cherry pick books when they created the canon, allowing for an even higher degree of consistency because of their editorial choices.
As for googling for proofs of Christ's existence, or proofs of God, I have done that previously and reviewed the arguments. I don't find them convincing. More to the point, I am responding to your thread, which has become a defense of the faith. This being the case, I am interested in hearing if you have any defense for the most basic tenet of the faith, namely the existence of god.
Frankly, I would be shocked if you came up with anything, although I am certainly going to follow the thread to see if you can. Part of my personal history is a falling away from the catholic faith to become an atheist. This was pre-Internet, so one of my attempts to develop a full understanding and give religion a chance was to speak to a diocesan Monsignor and ask him to answer some off my questions. He spent a great deal of time with me, and your answers are reminiscent of his. However, he wS completely unable to address the very foundational questions which I posed to him back in the day, and to you now.
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No good, NO GOOD can come of it in the NORMS of married sexual activity.
16] And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. [17] And seeing him they adored: but some doubted. [18] And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU: and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world"
