What do you find to be strange or unusual about Catholic Beliefs (disciple, myth)

[Patrick for Christ]

Originally Posted by leilaniguy

I guess that so many followers seem to put Mary above Jesus. My parents, (Protestants) always said Mary was merely a vessel.

This my friend borders on false-teaching.

While Mary is held in high esteem by most Catholics; we VENERATE her; bit do NOT "worship" her. "Worship" is reserved for God alone.

As I have covered this is great detail in other post; I will here just point out that our esteem for Mary reast on two points:

Mary is the ONLY EVER Mother of God: [1 in many billions of options God had]

[1] Luke 1: 26-35
26] And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, [27] To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin' s name was Mary. [28] And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. [29] Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. [30] And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God.

[31] Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. [32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. [33] And of his kingdom there shall be no end. [34] And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? [35] And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

[2] Our veneration has a biblical foundation. BY FAR the most often prayed prayer "to" Mary [actually THROUGH Mary is a far better understanding as ALL prayers are intended to END with God].

Hail Mary, [Lk. 1:28]
Full of Grace [Lk. 1:28]
The Lord is with thee [Lk 1:27]
Blessed are you among all women [Lk 1:42]
And Blessed in the fruit of your womb: Jesus [Lk. 1;42]
Holy Mary [Lk.1: 28]
Mother of God 1:35
Pray for us sinners [our catholic petition]
Now and at the hour of our death
Amen” [I BELIEVE!]

Luke: 1: 46-54

[46] And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. [47] And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. [48] Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. [49] Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. [50] And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him.

[48] Shall call me blessed: These words are a prediction of that honour which the church in all ages should pay to the Blessed Virgin. Let Protestants examine whether they are any way concerned in this prophecy.

[51] He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. [52] He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble. [53] He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. [54] He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy: [55] As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever."

God Bless you,

Patrick

[Patrick for Christ]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

I would love to hear your explanation of Trout Dude's post....publicly or privately.
Mind you, Trout said it seemed strange, not mysterious.

But, I'm thinking these beliefs below are not singular to Catholics.

I would love to hear your explanation of Trout Dude's post....publicly or privately.
Mind you, Trout said it seemed strange, not mysterious.

"Jesus" THEE "Son of God?"

Quote:
Trout: I find it strange that Catholics/Christians believe God sent
part 2 of his 3-part self to fake being human and pretend to die for 3 days before
zooming back up to heaven to re-assume his deputy godhood.

And this "sacrifice" was supposed to atone for a woman who, thousands of years earlier,
disobeyed God #1 and followed a suggestion made by a talking snake.

The Theological Term that we Christians us is "the Incarnation." And I suspect [Me personally] that most Christians and Catholics too think this is Mysterious; and indeed STRANGE

We do so in great part because we either do not understanding God or, perhaps misunderstand God.

So lets take that as are starting point.

Isaiah 43: 6-10

[6] Seek ye the Lord, while he may be found: call upon him, while he is near. [7] Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unjust man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God: for he is bountiful to forgive. [8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. [9] For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts. [10] And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater"

ALL of us; no matter how well formed we are in our faith beliefs; still lack a full understanding of God. We can however get glimpses of at least who God is in relation to His Created man; whom the bible in Genesis 1:26-27 teaches us that God Created us in His "image and likeness." I'll defer here how that is manifested unless someone actually ask that question.

Gen. 1: 26-27
[26] "And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. [27] And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them."

Why then did God choose to "create man" and WHY did God Create man "in his own image?"

Isaiah 43: verses 7 & 21 provide the answers:

Isaiah 43: 7 & 21 “And every one that calleth upon my name, I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, and made him. & This people have I formed for myself, [Genesis 1: 26-27] they shall shew forth my praise.”

So we see here that God created man with a very precise goal; a specific Hope in mind.

Next we note man's [Adam & Eve's] response to these goals and Hopes of God for His Created man.

But before we delve a bit deeper into this; let's first try to get a fuller understanding of the "conditions" God gave to A & E....

Quote literally they were given a literally "perfect" existence. Every conceivable need was anticipated by God and met for them even before they thought of it. No death, no illness, no lack of "creature comforts." The only thing God withheld from them; was the "fruit" of a single tree [portrayed often as an apple tree], of which their were a ca-zillion others that could have eaten from without punishment.

God choose to TEST A & E [because some of His created angels; who too were created in that "same image and likeness of their God"; but before He choose to test create and test A & E, who had attempted to over-throw God Himself, and assume heaven for themselves. Therefore God showed just cause in testing A & E as well.

The only, the single thing lacking from A & E's existence [Genesis chapter 3] was to "be God"; not simply "like God" as that they already had. So from this understanding that A & E freely choose to wager ALL that God had provided for them, in order to try to become God themselves.

Words are inadequate [at least mine are] to fully express the severity; the grievousness of their choice; and no doubt they had not the slightest idea of how God would react; should they [as they did] fail. Their focus was totally on what THEY wanted; not what God wanted for them.

So the sin of A & E was not just eating the fruit from a tree that God put off-limit to them. NO! The sin was desiring to BE GOD and to wager everything He had given them to accomplish this goal that they and Satan had agreed upon.

The primary penalty imposed by God [and most-often missed by non-Catholics & some catholics as well] was that God choose then to BLOCK the "gate" [singular] of heaven EVEN before it was used.

Meaning that no one would be able to attain heaven. It might as well at that point not even had existed.

Those souls that under different circumstances merited heaven [Before Christ] such as Noah, Abram, Moses, Aaron David and so on; rather then dying and their Souls ascending to Heaven; were to languor in what is theologically termed: The "Limbo of the Fathers."

This "limbo" was a place without pain or punishment BUT lacking the "Beatific Vision"; that is NOT being in the actual Divine Presence of God.

So that then takes us closer to where we can begin to discuss your very Profound question:

God created humanity so that man could freely choose to Worship and Glorify Him. This created a condition where God desired to be in a personal relationship with His created humanity; FAR more urgently than man wanting to be in a personal-relationship with Him. So in effect God was punishing Himself even more than he was mankind. [Even though God being Perfect can neither be made more or less so]; so again words fail me.

Then in addition to this major [if I may use that term?] condition being imposed; God also inflicted humanity with death, sickness, suffering, pride, greed, lust and the other Capitol sins, as His test; now MUCH more severe that we under Grace and not only His Laws [commandments] Romans 6:14. we too would be commanded and expected to take what I have come to call: "THE GOD TEST" .... Do We prove to God that we love Him more than ourselves and those in our "own little , largely self-contained-worlds"

This; the GOD TEST explains [as best as I am able] just why God; who is ONE Exodus 6: 7 & the 1st Commandment]... The God of the OT is the very same God of the NT. In an precisely clear manner The Mystery of the Blessed Trinity is spoken of also in the NT but clearly identified in the NT:

Mt. 3: 13-17
"
[13] Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. [14] But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? [15] And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him.

[16] And Jesus [GOD THE SON] being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove,[GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT] and coming upon him. [17] And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, [GOD THE FATHER] in whom I am well pleased.

we must then consider because their is but One true God; that what One person" know, wanted, desired. approved of or disapproved of was always and every-time shared by the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit

So what the Father desired was desired by all; what Christ endured in his ministry and in His Passion was shared by All. So quote literally; Jesus was not "so-much" sent "by the Father" as He had agreed to come both on behalf of the God-Head and for the sake of humanities possible and highly conditional salvation. One might even say that Jesus "sent Himself."

Now permit you mind to go back to the beginning of this post and the sin of Adam and Eve. AND the consequences of that sin, now termed "Original Son" [a theological term].

It was for the following reasons that God choose [for Himself] to become humanity [a very secondary reason was His Desire to experience FIRST hand what we ourselves experience]

1. He created humanity so that they COULD [which only humanity is able to do] freely choose to Know, Love and Serve Him [Worship Him] in this life so that they MIGHT conditionally attain heaven for eternity. WHICH is the DESIRE of God for every created man. And OUGHT to be the same desire for all humanity.

2. God imposed rewards and punishments as was absolutely necessary for His Divinity. God HAS to be both Fair and Just in -order to be God. So good actions HAVE to be rewarded; just as BAD actions HAVE to be punished.

3. God desires that ALL men "be saved" BUT His sense of fairness and Justice DEMANDS that we be tested and MADE to prove our fidelity to Him.

4. God desires to be in a relationship with us that FAR exceeds our desire to do the same with Him

5. God sought to [in a sense] tilt the odds in favor of humanity freely choosing to do so; and thus completing their reason to exist; and at the same time fulfill God's reason for creating us. This then directly lead to the Incarnation.

6. The Incarnation then led to the Creation of GRACE [essential for anyone's salvation]; and to His One God; with ONLY One possible set of Faith beliefs, in and through the Only Church [singular] that He desires, founded, fully guides and protects on only ALL matters to be believed on faith and moral issues.
Mt. 16: 15-19; John 17: 16-20, Mt. 28:16-20; Eph. 4:1-7

7. God became incarnate to give God a reason to Create Grace [highly conditional]

To establish His Church empowered and fully authorized to act on His behalf:Mt. 10: 1-8 Mt. 16:18-19 & Mt 28:18-20; and to MODEL for us how to live our lives in conformance to the Divine Will.

God become an incarnate man, like us in every-way BUT sin out of Mercy; manifested in LOVE. Amen!

God Bless you,

Patrick

[Patrick for Christ]

Originally Posted by Fletchman

Candidly, as a practicing Catholic up until about two years ago, I increasingly found Catholic teaching on sexuality and celibacy to be bizarre.

Priestly celibacy is not healthy, in my view, and, while I have great respect for most clergy, I think it may encourage misconduct as we've heard about over the years.

Did you know that you can get married to Jesus in the Catholic church? I had not heard of this myself:

Woman marries Jesus Christ, becomes consecrated virgin

A woman became a "consecrated virgin" in a ceremony in Ft. Wayne, Indiana.

While there are a lot of good values, there are a number of bizarre medieval traditions that exist. The Church has a very uneasy and kind of dark perspective on sexuality from my observations.

Thanks,

I touched on this is a earlier post #49 that you may wish to take a peek at.

It is harder in these day's of extensive "MEISM" and blatant and widely promoted feel-good sexuality to be objective on any related topic. Its near impossible to turn on TV or watch a movie that does not advocate FREE SEX as a "right"; never wrong; never a sin. So to have the Church offer [ and that is a critical and key word: OFFER] an alternative certainly would seem strange.

Missing in the equation are three overlooked or not rightly understood things:

1. God & God's GRACE and its essential and wondrous ability to make the impossible VERY possible

2. The dear death of an informed conscience on moral issues and matters.

But my friend God IS in charge even when we do not wish Him to be.

3. While the Priesthood is a Vocation to which one is called for by God:

JOHN 15:16
“[16] You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.”

A basic tenet of all Christian faiths ought to comprehend is that so long as one hears and accepts the vocation that GOD has chosen for that person; GOD will OFFER sufficient grace to make living that life; that vocation possible.

No-one is forced to become a Catholic priest. NO they feel called by God & then respond to GOD"S call. Not so different from a marriage vocation where we too are called to a different level of Chasity; AND OFFERED the grace to accomplish it. Yet look at the number of cases of infidelity within marriages; and look at the number of Catholic & Christian Divorces.

Grace declined.

Candidates to the Priesthood KNOW full well what they are agreeing to; and then FREELY choose to do so.

The scandals of sexual-predators has NO direct connection to being married or unmarried. EVEN IF married these perverts would most likely act out their perversions!

God will because God commits Himself to make possible what ever what ever humanity does in accord with HIS Divine Will.

COUNTLESS Thousands; even millions, have lived their priestly vocations in complete accord with their FREELY taken vow of Chasity.

If a Catholic Priest is experiencing difficulties living fully their Vow of Chasity; there are people who are qualified and will GLADLY assist them. Priest have always been the center of Satan's target; BUT they also receive graces we never have access to.

Satan cannot FORCE anyone to sinL it takes mans cooperation. LET IS PRAY!

God Bless you,

Patrick

[Freak80]

Patrick,

Where do you get this stuff?

I was told that fundamentalist Christianity was invented by Protestants in the 1920s. Apparently, that is not the case?

[Patrick for Christ]

Originally Posted by hljc

If you would put this thread in the Christianity section then it would closed down of the first day ................... Most of the Doctrine of the Catholic church is correct , except the belief in praying to the saints , as I would give the virgin a pass and understand the revelation God has for the virgin but the other saint of heaven , I cannot see the faith there , as Jesus in the understanding I got is that the prayers of heaven from saints will be dry and a dead end , as Jesus said he will judge the generation from what this generation does and does not do and interference from the saints heaven will not happen??? ....................... Other stand is that some in the catholic faith confess that if you are not catholic then you are not saved , which I found to be strictly incorrect and mostly just a religious comment , as there are countless believers in Christ who are saved and know Jesus and were baptized in the Holy Spirit and not Catholic , , as God is diverse and calls us to love them all

Other stand is that some in the catholic faith confess that if you are not catholic then you are not saved , which I found to be strictly incorrect and mostly just a religious comment , as there are countless believers in Christ who are saved and know Jesus and were baptized in the Holy Spirit and not Catholic , , as God is diverse and calls us to love them all

[/quote]

Actually its not

There can be Logically only One true God

That One True God [the 1st Commandment; now more than 4,000 years old] can logically have only one set of right; of true faith beliefs which being God; he could not have waited for more than 1,200 YEARS to make known as necessary to actually save souls. So the teachings of Wycliffe, Luther, Calvin and Smith; in an absolute sense; despite [or perhaps because of] being contradictory to beliefs and practices that actually Do date back to the Time of Christ Visitation; cannot possibly [morally or logically] replace them.

The Catholic Church for Informed and fully practicing Catholics certainly do have "an inside track"; a greater POSSIBILITY of meriting hheir salvation; BUT we DO NOT teach that Salvation is IMPOSSIBLE outside of the CC"

From our Catholic Catechism [available on-line for anyone to access ... Saint Charles Borromeo Catholic Church of Picayune, MS - Faith - Catechism of the Catholic Church

CCC # 846 "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."

CCC # 847 "This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation"

The Catholic Church DOES however profess and proclaim that in mysterious way's that ALL Savation must "pass through Her" as She alone is the One Church originally founded by Jesus Christ for the inhanced possibility of meriting one's salvation when what She teaches is accepted and obeyed. Amen!

God Bless you and thanks for your post,

Patrick

[Patrick for Christ]

Originally Posted by denverian

Yeah, I never even believed that as a kid. But I do see the beauty in the Mass.

Please dear friend look at POST #34

If that does not answer fully, then please ask me to explain what reservations you might still have

God Bless you,

Patick

[Patrick for Christ]

Originally Posted by denverian

Not really. The distraction of "semen buildup" is much worse And if parenthood is a full time job, how do you explain the millions of parents who have jobs? FWIW, my Presbyterian church has 3 pastors, all married with kids. They manage to get their work done.

OK

I accept your point. But it does not agree with the HISTORY of 2,000 years of the RCC, nor does the Apostle Paul agree with you.

1st. Cor. 7: [31] And they that use this world, as if they used it not: for the fashion of this world passeth away. [32] But I would have you to be without solicitude. He that is without a wife, is solicitous for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please God. [33] But he that is with a wife, is solicitous for the things of the world, how he may please his wife: and he is divided. [34] And the unmarried woman and the virgin thinketh on the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she that is married thinketh on the things of the world, how she may please her husband. [35] And this I speak for your profit: not to cast a snare upon you; but for that which is decent, and which may give you power to attend upon the Lord, without impediment."

This my friend is considered "Church Practice" as is therefore changeable.

I pray that I did not say married pastors are bad or incompetent; that is NOT the message I share. Only that being single minded for the WORDS and works of the Lord IS a better way.

The Priesthood is voluntary: ALL Priest choose this condition as a sacrifice to God; and therefore revieve sufficient Grace to fulfill their Ministry

God Bless you and your pastors!

Patrick

[Patrick for Christ]

Originally Posted by DewDropInn

Well, thank you Patrick. God bless you too.

p.s. I've known more than one nun who would be able to teach a room full of 9-year-old's, celebrate Mass AND make pumpkin bread. Priests who can only do one job at a time need to take a lesson.

Having been taught by the Good sisters of Charity for 8 years; and then the Bothers of Holy Cross for HS; I can SORTA agree with you.

BUT God Himself Created us Male and Female for HIS purpose.

Holy Orders is a Sacrament unchangeable excpet by God

Sacred Tradition now some 4,000 years in the making has a consistent history of God choosing only Men to be His primary [BUT NOT ONLY] leaders of His One set of Faith beliefs:

Noah, Abraham, the Judges, Kings Like David, and Prophets like Isiah; leading to John the Baptism; leading to Christ who took up that Sacred Tradition by freely choosing 12 male-gender apostles; who in-turn chose other men as priest, deacon's and Bishops.

The their is the august endowment of the Priesthood to be ABLE to actually fulfill God's command: Cf. "DO THIS in Memory of ME" Luke 22 & and Paul in 1st Cor, 11.

"This IS MY Body" & This IS MY Blood is a literal reality that ONLY another male-gender person can complete.

God Bless you my friend

Patrick

[Patrick for Christ]

Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801

I think the oddest thing about the Roman Catholic Church is its insistence that it is the original church. A basic review of early Christian history would easily show that not to be true.

The other thing I think is weird is the immaculate conception of Mary. It seems superfluous and unnecessary to Christianity that Mary had to have been conceived as sinless.

As a non-Catholic Christian I obviously don't agree with a lot of the dogma, but I do understand how most of it came about. Also, there is a pretty good Catholic apologist named Karl Keating. I read one of his books, and it was very informative as to why and when the RCC adopted certain beliefs that have been rejected by other Christian traditions.

I think the oddest thing about the Roman Catholic Church is its insistence that it is the original church. A basic review of early Christian history would easily show that not to be true

.

My dear friend in Christ; I would dearly LOVE to see the evidence of that statement. So until I do, I'll just pass over it and go on to your next point.

Karl Keating is the founder of Catholic Answers FORUM, I'm not sure what book you're speaking of, but about a year or so ago I came across:"Catholicism and Fundamentalism" authored by him. It was an objectivr and very well researched book. Its by Ignatius Press.

Thank you my friend for your kind words

God Bless you,

Patrick

[DewDropInn]

Originally Posted by Patrick for Christ

"This IS MY Body" & This IS MY Blood is a literal reality that ONLY another male-gender person can complete.

I know nuns who disagree with that.

God bless right back at ya.