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Old 11-20-2015, 05:34 PM
 
9,981 posts, read 8,612,465 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn View Post
I can't be part of an institution that massacred thousands, women in fields picking herbs!
I wonder what specific act of violence you're thinking of, and its circumstances.

To be confirmed by Fulton J. Sheen is an honor.
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Old 11-20-2015, 05:43 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,945,607 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick for Christ View Post
Let's begin by building somewhat of a foundation for our discussion.....

........Other effects such as death, illness, work, suffering ect. continue to remind all of us that we are CREATED by God and FOR God.
Patrick, you may feel your getting your point across by quoting all those passages, but your not. This is not a thesis or dissertation that requires point by point citation. In fact, it turns people off, and frankly, you may have made a cogent point, but it got lost.

I, nor virtually anyone else here cares or has read your post in entirety.

Perhaps if you just make your point, and if you feel the necessity to quote biblical passages, why not just refer to them with a link to where you are copying them from?
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Old 11-20-2015, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Central Flrida
205 posts, read 120,130 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbrains View Post
It's a long list, so I cannot be comprehensive. But for a top ten:

Celibacy for clergy
Gender inequality
Transubstantiation
Belief in God
Confession
Intercession by saints
For that matter, Saints
the thought that sexual acts must be open to the possibility of conception, leading to a hostility towards contraception
Original sin
Sacraments as some sort of ....elevated/holy?... Human/divine activity.
Now to final question of your great post:

Quote:
Sacraments as some sort of ....elevated/holy?... Human/divine activity
Again from Father Hardon's Catholic dictionary:

SACRAMENT. "A sensible sign, instituted by Jesus Christ, by which invisible grace and inward sanctification are communicated to the soul. The essential elements of a sacrament of the New Law are institution by Christ the God-man during his visible stay on earth, and a sensibly perceptible rite that actually confers the supernatural grace it symbolizes. In a broad sense every external sign of internal divine blessing is a sacrament. And in this sense there were already sacraments in the Old Law, such as the practice of circumcision. But, as the Council of Trent defined, these ancient rites differed essentially from the sacraments of the New Law, they did not really contain the grace they signified, nor was the fullness of grace yet available through visible channels merited and established by the Savior. (Etym. Latin sacramentum, oath, solemn obligation; from sacrare, to set apart as sacred, consecrate.)"

There are Seven Sacraments; all directly or implicitly instituted by Jesus Christ:

The first point I wish to share is a brief definition og God; which leads directly into what we are discussing now:

God can be briefly defined as "All Good things Perfected", and the Seven Sacraments are both a summary and a manifestation of God's necessary goodness. Most notably are the sacrament of the Most Holy Eucharist [Catholic Holy Communion" and the Sacrament of Known forgiveness of our sins.

God can only CAUSE goodness and good-things. God can and does however PERMIT tragedy and evil to happen as a consequence of human nature; which is said to have a natural propensity towards sin; which nearly always is somehow related to man's pride. The theological term for this is concupiscence: Another Theological term.

CONCUPISCENCE. "Insubordination of man's desires to the dictates of reason, and the propensity of human nature to sin as a result of original sin. More commonly, it refers to the spontaneous movement of the sensitive appetites toward whatever the imagination portrays as pleasant and away from whatever it portrays as painful. However, concupiscence also includes the unruly desires of the will, such as pride, ambition, and envy. (Etym. Latin con-, thoroughly + cupere, to desire: concupiscentia, desire, greed, cupidity.)" Again from Father Hardon's dictionary

This too resulted from the Original sin of A & E and floes from Divine Justice commanding evidence of their fidelity and love of and for God.

The Sacraments of which their are "Seven"; a number that in the bible means "complete or perfect" signifies that Seven Sacraments ARE sufficient when properly administered and rightly received to accomplish the work for which they are intended.

Because God is Perfect we can know that anything and everything man does in relation to God HAS TO be for man's benefit. God being Perfect cannot be made "more perfect" or less perfect by anything we do or fail to do; such as charity.

We shared earlier in Isaiah 43 verses 7 & 21 that man exist precisely to discover God; and then to Worship and Glorify Him. [Last post]. But our "human natures" are in competition with this goal.

Driven by man's Pride we struggle greatly to get past what I CALL "MEISM." What I want; what I prefer; what is I think better for ME!

Each of the Sacraments strives in a particular way to make saying NO! to "MEISM" and YES! To what God wants, more likely, and easier to do.

The Seven Sacraments as a group increase our odds of meriting our Eternal Salvation.
They are; from Father Hardon's dictionary:

Baptism

BAPTISM. The sacrament in which, by water and the word of God, a person is cleansed of all sin and reborn and sanctified in Christ to everlasting life. (Etym. Latin baptisma; from Greek baptisma, a dipping.) [John 3:5 & Mt. 28:18-20]

Eucharist / Catholic Holy Communion [Jesus Himself] 1st. Cor, 11: 23-30

EUCHARIST. The true Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, who is really and substantially present under the appearances of bread and wine, in order to offer himself in the sacrifice of the Mass and to be received as spiritual food in Holy Communion. It is called Eucharist, or "thanksgiving," because at its institution at the Last

Supper Christ "gave thanks," and by this fact it is the supreme object and act of Christian gratitude to God.

Although the same name is used, the Eucharist is any one or all three aspects of one mystery, namely the Real Presence, the Sacrifice, and Communion. As Real Presence, the Eucharist is Christ in his abiding existence on earth today; as Sacrifice, it is Christ in his abiding action of High Priest, continuing now to communicate the graces he merited on Calvary; and as Communion, it is Christ coming to enlighten and strengthen the believer by nourishing his soul for eternal life. (Etym. Latin eucharistia, the virtue of thanksgiving or thankfulness; from Greek eucharistia, gratitude; from eu-, good + charizesthai, to show favor.) See also SACRAMENT OF THE ALTAR.

Confession /Penance/Reconciliation: synonymous terms for the same Sacrament; each with its own definition and application to sin forgiveness

CONFESSION. The voluntary self-accusation of one's sins to a qualified priest in order to obtain absolution from him. This accusation must be an external manifestation. It must be objectively complete in that the penitent confesses every mortal sin according to number and kinds that he has committed since his last worthy reception of the sacrament of penance. In extraordinary circumstances a subjectively complete confession is sufficient, that is, when circumstances prevent a person from accusing himself of all his grave sins. He is nevertheless obliged to confess all his mortal sins in a later reception of the sacrament.

When there are no mortal sins to confess, it is sufficient to confess any previous sins from one's past life or any present venial sins of which a person has been guilty, in order to obtain absolution and the grace of the sacrament of penance. (Etym. Latin con-, thoroughly + fateri, to acknowledge: confessio, confession.)

Confirmation:

CONFIRMATION. The sacrament in which, through the laying on of hands, anointing with chrism, and prayer, those already baptized are strengthened by the Holy Spirit in order that they may steadfastly profess the faith and faithfully live up to their profession. Confirmation is not strictly necessary for salvation, but it is eminently important in contributing to Christian perfection and there is a grave obligation to receive it in due time. (Etym. Latin con-, thoroughly + firmare, to make firm: confirmatio, fortification, strengthening.)

Marriage

MARRIAGE. As a natural institution, the lasting union of a man and a woman who agree to give and receive rights over each other for the performance of the act of generation and for the fostering of their mutual love.

The state of marriage implies four chief conditions: 1. there must be a union of opposite sexes; it is therefore opposed to all forms of unnatural, homosexual behavior; 2. it is a permanent union until the death of either spouse; 3. it is an exclusive union, so that extramarital acts are a violation of justice; and 4. its permanence and exclusiveness are guaranteed by contract; mere living together, without mutually binding themselves to do so, is concubinage and not marriage.

Christ elevated marriage to a sacrament of the New Law. Christian spouses signify and partake of the mystery of that unity and fruitful love which exists between Christ and his Church, helping each other attain to holiness in their married life and in the rearing and education of their children.

Holy Orders

ORDERS, SACRAMENT OF. The sacrament that, by the imposition of a bishop’s hands, confers on a man the grace and spiritual power to sanctify others. There are three forms of this sacrament, also called sacramental orders, namely diaconate, priesthood and episcopate. They are not, however, three sacraments, but only one sacrament that is separately administered with three successively higher sacramental effects. It is certain that every baptized male can be validly ordained, although it would be highly illicit to ordain him before the age of reason. It is likewise certain that every baptized male can be validly ordained a priest without previously being ordained a deacon. However, the more probable teaching is that a baptized male cannot be validly consecrated a bishop unless he has previously been ordained a priest.

Extreme Unction [the Last Rites]

EXTREME UNCTION. A term used for centuries for the sacrament of the anointing of the sick. It is unction because a person is anointed with oil; it is extreme because it is conferred on those who are considered in extremis; i.e., in extreme physical disability with the likelihood of dying.

NOTE: This ha more recently been expanded to include anyone facing a major surgery; or a serious illness; or "old age." This Sacrament can be received MORE than one time.

The sacraments exist to provide; to give the Grace that that Sacrament signifies.

The unique relationship between Grace and the Sacraments is Profound.

Grace as described earlier is a FREE Gift by God; who alone determines who will be offered what; when and how much. The EXCEPTION to this and among the greatest manifestations of God's Merciful Love for US; is that He permits US in the Sacraments of Confession, Eucharist, Confirmation, Marriage, Holy Orders, to determine largely by and through our worthy and active participation to effect just how much grace is offered to us; and in the Eucharist and Confession; even how OFTEN grace is offered to us. What an Amazing God we have!

In each of the Seven Sacraments we actually encounter Christ in a different manner; each to OUR spiritual Benefit when properly received.

The Sacraments; even IF they were the only differences between Catholicism and Protestantism would warrant; would merit becoming a Informed and fully practicing Catholic. They permit is to have KNOWN forgiveness of our sins [others claim to but don't really]; they permit is to in the most intimate manner encounter Christ while still here on earth; a foretaste of Heaven itself. And all of the other Sacraments make it far easier and more likely that we will emulate God's love while here on earth; to great spiritual benefit.

Matthew 5:48
"Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16
"Because it is written: You shall be holy, for I am holy"

God Bless you my friend. If any further information is desired please send me a private message

Patrick
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Old 11-20-2015, 06:21 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
28,133 posts, read 30,052,176 times
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Patrick, I would just like to know whether the following statement is accurate or not with respect to Catholic beliefs:

Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
...it may be OK to be childless, but... SEXUAL INTERCOURSE is an absolute SIN outside the intent to procreate...
(This is, of course, assuming that the man and woman involved are legally married.)
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Old 11-20-2015, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Fishers, IN
6,485 posts, read 12,557,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Patrick, I would just like to know whether the following statement is accurate or not with respect to Catholic beliefs:



(This is, of course, assuming that the man and woman involved are legally married.)
Patrick will undoubtedly give a more thorough response, but that statement is not really true. Sex within marriage must be taken with the openness to life resulting from the action.
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Old 11-20-2015, 06:59 PM
 
25 posts, read 19,276 times
Reputation: 47
Well...lets give it a whirl (shall we).

  • Prehistoric Primitive Ceremonies.
  • Eating bread as Remembrance of the Body Christ Crucified.
  • Drinking Red Wine as if it were the Blood of Christ.
  • The back and forth Chanting between Priest and Pew.
  • The Tradition of Priests and Nuns being Virgins and having no spouse.
  • The Gothic Garb they wear.
  • The sprinkling of water to wash away the Sin.
  • The Baptism of children...to be dunked in Water to wash away Sin.
  • The Obscene amount of Wealth possessed by the Catholic Church which they STOLE from its members.
  • The Political influence of the Church amongest its followers to this day.
  • The Weird Changes in the NEW POPES philosophy of allowing Same Sex Marriage when it CLEARLY states in the NT that same sex marriage and fornication is BLASPHEMY against God himself.
  • The Hypocrisy of the Church that blesses those who kill (whoever gives money to the church gets to have their sins forgiven) and victims of other religions who are condemned.
etc.

Clearly there is good work done by the Catholic Church...but to continue to believe and follow this religion with any conviction is truly delusional.
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Old 11-20-2015, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
28,133 posts, read 30,052,176 times
Reputation: 13129
Quote:
Originally Posted by grmasterb View Post
Patrick will undoubtedly give a more thorough response, but that statement is not really true. Sex within marriage must be taken with the openness to life resulting from the action.
Somehow, I'm really not surprised in the slightest that there was some intent on the part of the original poster to mislead.
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Old 11-20-2015, 07:44 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,945,607 times
Reputation: 4561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Somehow, I'm really not surprised in the slightest that there was some intent on the part of the original poster to mislead.
Psst, Katzpur, careful.

The OP may surmise the Mormon church in fact is more secretive and influential than the Catholic church, especially in the USA.

I mean, why would they want with all those Deseret land holdings, right? There has to be a conspiracy in there someplace.
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Old 11-20-2015, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Fishers, IN
6,485 posts, read 12,557,092 times
Reputation: 4126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackie Mcpherson View Post
Well...lets give it a whirl (shall we).

  • Prehistoric Primitive Ceremonies.
  • Eating bread as Remembrance of the Body Christ Crucified.
  • Drinking Red Wine as if it were the Blood of Christ.
  • The back and forth Chanting between Priest and Pew.
  • The Tradition of Priests and Nuns being Virgins and having no spouse.
  • The Gothic Garb they wear.
  • The sprinkling of water to wash away the Sin.
  • The Baptism of children...to be dunked in Water to wash away Sin.
  • The Obscene amount of Wealth possessed by the Catholic Church which they STOLE from its members.
  • The Political influence of the Church amongest its followers to this day.
  • The Weird Changes in the NEW POPES philosophy of allowing Same Sex Marriage when it CLEARLY states in the NT that same sex marriage and fornication is BLASPHEMY against God himself.
  • The Hypocrisy of the Church that blesses those who kill (whoever gives money to the church gets to have their sins forgiven) and victims of other religions who are condemned.
etc.



Clearly there is good work done by the Catholic Church...but to continue to believe and follow this religion with any conviction is truly delusional.
First, priests and nuns need not be virgins. They must be celibate. There was a priest in my diocese who entered the priesthood after his wife passed away. He had children and grandchildren.

Pope Francis allows same-sex marriage? What on Earth gave you that impression?

On your last point, indulgences went away several centuries ago.
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Old 11-20-2015, 08:21 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
31,373 posts, read 20,249,356 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grmasterb View Post
First, priests and nuns need not be virgins. They must be celibate. There was a priest in my diocese who entered the priesthood after his wife passed away. He had children and grandchildren.

Pope Francis allows same-sex marriage? What on Earth gave you that impression?

On your last point, indulgences went away several centuries ago.
Um, nope.

They were still being passed around in the 50s and possibly early 60s. I earned a few during my altar boy years.
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