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Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn
I would love to hear your explanation of Trout Dude's post....publicly or privately.
Mind you, Trout said it seemed strange, not mysterious.
But, I'm thinking these beliefs below are not singular to Catholics.
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Quote:
I would love to hear your explanation of Trout Dude's post....publicly or privately.
Mind you, Trout said it seemed strange, not mysterious.
"Jesus" THEE "Son of God?"
Quote:
But, I'm thinking these beliefs below are not singular to Catholics.
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Quote:
Trout: I find it strange that Catholics/Christians believe God sent
part 2 of his 3-part self to fake being human and pretend to die for 3 days before
zooming back up to heaven to re-assume his deputy godhood.
And this "sacrifice" was supposed to atone for a woman who, thousands of years earlier,
disobeyed God #1 and followed a suggestion made by a talking snake.
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The Theological Term that we Christians us is "the Incarnation." And I suspect [Me personally] that most Christians and Catholics too think this is Mysterious; and indeed STRANGE
We do so in great part because we either do not understanding God or, perhaps misunderstand God.
So lets take that as are starting point.
Isaiah 43: 6-10
[6] Seek ye the Lord, while he may be found: call upon him, while he is near. [7] Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unjust man his thoughts, and let him return to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God: for he is bountiful to forgive. [8]
For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord. [9] For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts. [10] And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater"
ALL of us; no matter how well formed we are in our faith beliefs; still lack a full understanding of God. We can however get glimpses of at least who God is in relation to His Created man; whom the bible in
Genesis 1:26-27 teaches us that God Created us in His "image and likeness." I'll defer here how that is manifested unless someone actually ask that question.
Gen. 1: 26-27
[26] "And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth. [27] And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them."
Why then did God choose to "create man" and WHY did God Create man "in his own image?"
Isaiah 43: verses 7 & 21 provide the answers:
Isaiah 43: 7 & 21 “And every one that calleth upon my name,
I have created him for my glory, I have formed him, and made him. & This people have I formed for myself, [Genesis 1: 26-27]
they shall shew forth my praise.”
So we see here that God created man with a very precise goal; a specific Hope in mind.
Next we note man's [Adam & Eve's] response to these goals and Hopes of God for His Created man.
But before we delve a bit deeper into this; let's first try to get a fuller understanding of the "conditions" God gave to A & E....
Quote literally they were given a literally "perfect" existence. Every conceivable need was anticipated by God and met for them even before they thought of it. No death, no illness, no lack of "creature comforts." The only thing God withheld from them; was the "fruit" of a single tree [portrayed often as an apple tree], of which their were a ca-zillion others that could have eaten from without punishment.
God choose to TEST A & E [because some of His created angels; who too were created in that "same image and likeness of their God"; but before He choose to test create and test A & E, who had attempted to over-throw God Himself, and assume heaven for themselves. Therefore God showed just cause in testing A & E as well.
The only, the single thing lacking from A & E's existence [Genesis chapter 3] was to "be God"; not simply "like God" as that they already had. So from this understanding that A & E freely choose to wager ALL that God had provided for them, in order to try to become God themselves.
Words are inadequate [at least mine are] to fully express the severity; the grievousness of their choice; and no doubt they had not the slightest idea of how God would react; should they [as they did] fail. Their focus was totally on what THEY wanted; not what God wanted for them.
So the sin of A & E was not just eating the fruit from a tree that God put off-limit to them. NO! The sin was desiring to BE GOD and to wager everything He had given them to accomplish this goal that they and Satan had agreed upon.
The primary penalty imposed by God [and most-often missed by non-Catholics & some catholics as well] was that God choose then to BLOCK the "gate" [singular] of heaven EVEN before it was used.
Meaning that no one would be able to attain heaven. It might as well at that point not even had existed.
Those souls that under different circumstances merited heaven [Before Christ] such as Noah, Abram, Moses, Aaron David and so on; rather then dying and their Souls ascending to Heaven; were to languor in what is theologically termed: The "Limbo of the Fathers."
This "limbo" was a place without pain or punishment BUT lacking the "Beatific Vision"; that is NOT being in the actual Divine Presence of God.
So that then takes us closer to where we can begin to discuss your very Profound question:
God created humanity so that man could freely choose to Worship and Glorify Him. This created a condition where God desired to be in a personal relationship with His created humanity; FAR more urgently than man wanting to be in a personal-relationship with Him. So in effect God was punishing Himself even more than he was mankind. [Even though God being Perfect can neither be made more or less so]; so again words fail me.
Then in addition to this major [if I may use that term?] condition being imposed; God also inflicted humanity with death, sickness, suffering, pride, greed, lust and the other Capitol sins, as His test; now MUCH more severe that we under Grace and not only His Laws [commandments] Romans 6:14. we too would be commanded and expected to take what I have come to call: "THE GOD TEST" .... Do We prove to God that we love Him more than ourselves and those in our "own little , largely self-contained-worlds"
This; the GOD TEST explains [as best as I am able] just why God; who is ONE Exodus 6: 7 & the 1st Commandment]... The God of the OT is the very same God of the NT. In an precisely clear manner The Mystery of the Blessed Trinity is spoken of also in the NT but clearly identified in the NT:
Mt. 3: 13-17
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[13] Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. [14] But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? [15] And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him.
[16] And Jesus [GOD THE SON] being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove,[GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT] and coming upon him. [17] And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, [GOD THE FATHER] in whom I am well pleased.
we must then consider because their is but One true God; that what One person" know, wanted, desired. approved of or disapproved of was always and every-time shared by the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit
So what the Father desired was desired by all; what Christ endured in his ministry and in His Passion was shared by All. So quote literally; Jesus was not "so-much" sent "by the Father" as He had agreed to come both on behalf of the God-Head and for the sake of humanities possible and highly conditional salvation. One might even say that Jesus "sent Himself."
Now permit you mind to go back to the beginning of this post and the sin of Adam and Eve. AND the consequences of that sin, now termed "Original Son" [a theological term].
It was for the following reasons that God choose [for Himself] to become humanity [a very secondary reason was His Desire to experience FIRST hand what we ourselves experience]
1. He created humanity so that they COULD [which only humanity is able to do] freely choose to Know, Love and Serve Him [Worship Him] in this life so that they MIGHT conditionally attain heaven for eternity. WHICH is the DESIRE of God for every created man. And OUGHT to be the same desire for all humanity.
2. God imposed rewards and punishments as was absolutely necessary for His Divinity. God HAS to be both Fair and Just in -order to be God. So good actions HAVE to be rewarded; just as BAD actions HAVE to be punished.
3. God desires that ALL men "be saved" BUT His sense of fairness and Justice DEMANDS that we be tested and MADE to prove our fidelity to Him.
4. God desires to be in a relationship with us that FAR exceeds our desire to do the same with Him
5. God sought to [in a sense] tilt the odds in favor of humanity freely choosing to do so; and thus completing their reason to exist; and at the same time fulfill God's reason for creating us. This then directly lead to the Incarnation.
6. The Incarnation then led to the Creation of GRACE [essential for anyone's salvation]; and to His One God; with ONLY One possible set of Faith beliefs, in and through the Only Church [singular] that He desires, founded, fully guides and protects on only ALL matters to be believed on faith and moral issues.
Mt. 16: 15-19; John 17: 16-20, Mt. 28:16-20; Eph. 4:1-7
7. God became incarnate to give God a reason to Create Grace [highly conditional]
To establish His Church empowered and fully authorized to act on His behalf:Mt. 10: 1-8 Mt. 16:18-19 & Mt 28:18-20; and to MODEL for us how to live our lives in conformance to the Divine Will.
God become an incarnate man, like us in every-way BUT sin out of Mercy; manifested in LOVE. Amen!
God Bless you,
Patrick