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7The Lord said to the Adversary, "Where are you coming from?" And the Adversary answered the Lord and said, "From going to and fro on the earth and from walking in it."
“From going to and fro on the earth and from walking in it.”: So is my wont to go to and fro, to see the evil ones and the good ones. Now I went to and fro throughout the entire earth and I did not find anyone like Abraham, about whom it is said (Gen. 13:17): “Rise, go to and fro in the land.” The Sages of blessed memory (Baba Bathra 16a) said that the Adversary meant this for the sake of Heaven, in order that Abraham’s merit not be forgotten by our God.
What I had said I think comes from my Chumash...
Ah I see what he's doing there. It certainly does expand on the plain sense found in Job.
Nah..I don't really support that. Why would you think that?
Hmmm.
Because you think literally an eternity of screaming ceaseless torture in curling, licking flames is a good punishment for ONE thought crime (i.e. "I have my doubts that Jesus is mankind's savior")?
You cannot substantiate that comment with any evidence at all, you can't even prove Satan exists.
Then why even having this thread? It is difficult to prove ANYTHING beyond a shadow of a doubt, you know. If Satan poofed into a room and it was video recorded, you would say ahh, just Hollywood effects.
And I've met criminals that can't understand why those cops won't stop hassling them! From their perspective, it's perfectly reasonable that they should be able to smoke all the dope they want and ignore whatever laws they choose !
This is actually a pretty good analogy.
A law exists, and no logical explanation for it has been given other than 'I oppose it.' And when logical arguments are given against the law, they're dismissed rather than taken seriously. The only issue is the duration and method of punishment. Most people caught with drugs aren't tortured forever.
Then why even having this thread? It is difficult to prove ANYTHING beyond a shadow of a doubt, you know. If Satan poofed into a room and it was video recorded, you would say ahh, just Hollywood effects.
Why can't it be live at the supper bowl? Satan is a god, right?
I just don't understand why Satan is supposed to be a baddie but the Biblical god all that is good? The deeds attributed to god are highly unpleasant to say the least, and indicate the entity is very deranged. Although poor Satan is always badmouthed, no actual misdeeds have been attributed to him.
Because Satan is a murderer (starting with the first man and women and subsequently their descendants) and is the father of the lie (again referring to Satan's interaction with the first man/woman). John 8:44 in relevant part, "He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
Satan was a fallen angel created perfect as all other angels but he chose to follow a course in opposition to God. One may find that difficult that a "perfect" being can become imperfect because as humans we think of perfection in the absolute sense. However, perfection in the Bible is all relative. God did not have to create evil simply because he created everything because only God (as indicated in the Bible) is perfect which means "perfect beings" other than God can sin. Even Jesus said that there is only one perfect being in the universe (in the absolute sense). BTW I simply believe what Jesus said of himself in John 14:28 and John 20:17,18...he is not the Almighty. The Bible describes Jesus as perfect yet Satan tempted him. What would be the point of Satan's temptation if he didn't feel Jesus could be tempted to sin? Satan did not always have that name but he became known as Satan when he began his course of opposition. Hebrew Scriptures indicate other spirit creatures followed a course in opposition to God by abandoning their place in heaven and coming to earth during the days of Noah.
Satan does not challenge God in terms of power either in the Hebrew Scriptures or the Greek Scriptures because God could easily destroy him but he has from the beginning challenged God's sovereignty.
The Greek Scriptures describe Satan symbolically as a dragon however that is symbolism. The "Dark Ages" as well as Hollywood have helped to create this image of a horned beast. the Bible actually tells us he disguises himself as an angel of light. In fact in Madrid Spain there is an old statue that is called "The Fallen Angel." He is depicted not as a horn beast, nor a Dragon, nor monster etc but as he became Satan.. a perfect being who turned against his Creator.
It is difficult to prove ANYTHING beyond a shadow of a doubt, you know.
No it isn't. Ask your god to keep you safe and then go and jump off a very high building. I guarantee, without a shadow of a doubt, that your god will not save you and you will die.
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Originally Posted by hd4me
Satan was a fallen angel created perfect...
Not possible. If something is perfect then it cannot become imperfect. If it does then it was never perfect in the first place.
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One may find that difficult that a "perfect" being can become imperfect because as humans we think of perfection in the absolute sense.
It is. That's why its called 'perfect'.
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God did not have to create evil simply because he created everything because only God (as indicated in the Bible) is perfect which means "perfect beings" other than God can sin.
It was your god that created Satan. Satan was simply carrying out the plan of your god...if you believe the nonsense in the first place of course.
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The Bible describes Jesus as perfect yet Satan tempted him.
Now all you have to do is show that the Bible is true.
Because you think literally an eternity of screaming ceaseless torture in curling, licking flames is a good punishment for ONE thought crime (i.e. "I have my doubts that Jesus is mankind's savior")?
That was my tipoff.
As always, nice speaking with you, Viz.
Actually, I remember reading somewhere that before Dante Alliegheri, hell was believed to be cold and dark and icy...
Last edited by Richard1965; 06-24-2016 at 12:53 AM..
Because Satan is a murderer (starting with the first man and women and subsequently their descendants) and is the father of the lie (again referring to Satan's interaction with the first man/woman). John 8:44 in relevant part, "He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
The murderer from the beginning was man...
Quote:
Satan was a fallen angel created perfect as all other angels but he chose to follow a course in opposition to God. One may find that difficult that a "perfect" being can become imperfect because as humans we think of perfection in the absolute sense. However, perfection in the Bible is all relative. God did not have to create evil simply because he created everything because only God (as indicated in the Bible) is perfect which means "perfect beings" other than God can sin. Even Jesus said that there is only one perfect being in the universe (in the absolute sense). BTW I simply believe what Jesus said of himself in John 14:28 and John 20:17,18...he is not the Almighty. The Bible describes Jesus as perfect yet Satan tempted him. What would be the point of Satan's temptation if he didn't feel Jesus could be tempted to sin? Satan did not always have that name but he became known as Satan when he began his course of opposition. Hebrew Scriptures indicate other spirit creatures followed a course in opposition to God by abandoning their place in heaven and coming to earth during the days of Noah.
I'm a Jew, so what Hebrew Scriptures are you referring to?...
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Satan does not challenge God in terms of power either in the Hebrew Scriptures or the Greek Scriptures because God could easily destroy him but he has from the beginning challenged God's sovereignty.
Man is the only creature that challenges G-d....
Quote:
The Greek Scriptures describe Satan symbolically as a dragon however that is symbolism. The "Dark Ages" as well as Hollywood have helped to create this image of a horned beast. the Bible actually tells us he disguises himself as an angel of light. In fact in Madrid Spain there is an old statue that is called "The Fallen Angel." He is depicted not as a horn beast, nor a Dragon, nor monster etc but as he became Satan.. a perfect being who turned against his Creator.
I think it was Dante that popularized that image...
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