Why is Satan supposed to be so bad? (quotes, faith, Christian)
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So they didn't BECOME imperfect, greedy, plotting, devious, ungrateful and sinful *after* eating the fruit.
They *already were* imperfect, greedy, plotting, devious, ungrateful and sinful.
Which means *they were made that way.* Not made to have the choice whether or not to be that way. Made that way, period.
Which means the fall is a lie; man never used his free will to disobey...he was created disobedient.
Which means free will is a lie too.
Which means God not only set man up to fail, He created man already failing. He created man to suffer, from the get go.
Thanks for clearing that up.
What a sicko. Really.
Here's the scoop. God gave Adam and Eve the free will choice to accept His Divine Love. This Divine Love is the essence and substance of God, which is delivered to our souls by God's Holy Spirit. It's a gift, which transforms humans into Divine beings and is a prerequisite for obtaining immortality aka salvation. The reason why it's necessary is based on the Law of Attraction. We can't live in God's highest Heavens, the Celestial Heavens, unless we possess what He has.
When Adam and Eve made it very clear they didn't want it, God withdrew the gift. This was their Fall. No longer could they obtain God's Divine Love and all the spiritual powers they possessed were also withdrawn. They became mere humans and subject to God's natural laws.
After centuries of human's degradation, God rebestowed the gift. The second time, it was to Jesus and thank God, he was humble enough to accept it and thank God, this gift is still available for those willing to accept it. It's free for the asking. We can accept or reject it... again, it's our free will choice. God doesn't love us any less if we don't. But it's our loss, not His.
For several years, I have been very close to God and for the truth seekers out there, He is really so awesome. He's not a sicko by any stretch of the imagination. He's loving, kind, patient, forgiving and God gives great hugs! Ask Him for one sometime and you'll know what I mean. I have felt God's substance, so I know He's real.
O/T I just saw where you live... I'm in the SC valley... over and up the hill a bit.
Last edited by SoCalAngel2009; 06-25-2016 at 10:52 PM..
Nah, I in my profession there a number of Jewish colleagues that I interact with and I find them to be intelligent, highly qualified, inquisitive, and humorous people who as a group, historically speaking, have surmounted many obstacles and prevailed. The Christian faith which I hold to also has zero animosity towards Jews or any other group of people for that matter.
Jesus was a Jew and so were the first Christians. Some of the Jewish leaders of his day, just as it happens in our time with some leaders of diverse faiths, should have known better but failed to lead the people in a fine way. It is man who has interpreted writings from the Bible to suit and justify atrocities or hatred however as is written in the Bible "Man dominates man to his own injury."
However, many people put their "faith" in internet chatter and presume that the actions of "Christians" throughout history truly represent the teaching of Christ or the apostles or that YHWH was an angry God, a creator of evil, etc . Well no. Moses wrote, "For I will declare the name of YHWH tell about the greatness of our God! The Rock, perfect is his activity,For all his ways are justice.A God of faithfulness who is never unjust;Righteous and upright is he. The Psalmist wrote, " I have seen a limit to all perfection,But your commandment has no limit (very broad). Perfection is relative and only the One God in the Bible is described as perfect in the absolute sense. The very meaning of perfection requires that one set the standard for what is perfect. A creation or "thing" therefore is perfect in relation to the role or function it was created for but that is not perfection in the absolute sense. The Bible writer James wrote, "
Every good gift and every perfect present is from above, coming down from the Father of the celestial lights, who does not vary or change like the shifting shadows." Jesus himself is quoted as saying only the true God is perfect (in the absolute sense)-Mark 10:18.
So it is possible for a creation to be perfectly created and yet become imperfect because God created intelligent and cognizant beings who can make decisions (and if made not in accordance with God's purposes the results are well known). Satan was created not as Satan but became such.
“La plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas." (The devil's finest trick is to persuade you that he does not exist.)-Charles Baudelair
Nah, I in my profession there a number of Jewish colleagues that I interact with and I find them to be intelligent, highly qualified, inquisitive, and humorous people who as a group, historically speaking, have surmounted many obstacles and prevailed. The Christian faith which I hold to also has zero animosity towards Jews or any other group of people for that matter.
Jesus was a Jew and so were the first Christians. Some of the Jewish leaders of his day, just as it happens in our time with some leaders of diverse faiths, should have known better but failed to lead the people in a fine way. It is man who has interpreted writings from the Bible to suit and justify atrocities or hatred however as is written in the Bible "Man dominates man to his own injury."
However, many people put their "faith" in internet chatter and presume that the actions of "Christians" throughout history truly represent the teaching of Christ or the apostles or that YHWH was an angry God, a creator of evil, etc . Well no. Moses wrote, "For I will declare the name of YHWH tell about the greatness of our God! The Rock, perfect is his activity,For all his ways are justice.A God of faithfulness who is never unjust;Righteous and upright is he. The Psalmist wrote, " I have seen a limit to all perfection,But your commandment has no limit (very broad). Perfection is relative and only the One God in the Bible is described as perfect in the absolute sense. The very meaning of perfection requires that one set the standard for what is perfect. A creation or "thing" therefore is perfect in relation to the role or function it was created for but that is not perfection in the absolute sense. The Bible writer James wrote, "
Every good gift and every perfect present is from above, coming down from the Father of the celestial lights, who does not vary or change like the shifting shadows." Jesus himself is quoted as saying only the true God is perfect (in the absolute sense)-Mark 10:18.
So it is possible for a creation to be perfectly created and yet become imperfect because God created intelligent and cognizant beings who can make decisions (and if made not in accordance with God's purposes the results are well known). Satan was created not as Satan but became such.
“La plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas." (The devil's finest trick is to persuade you that he does not exist.)-Charles Baudelair
And... the points concerning the first murderer being Cain?
P.S. Not sure if your are a Jehovah Witnedd, but if so... they certainly are anti-Semitic.
And... the points concerning the first murderer being Cain?
P.S. Not sure if your are a Jehovah Witnedd, but if so... they certainly are anti-Semitic.
Cain killed the spiritual hidden man within himself, and this is what I take from that story. We saw Jacob put on the skins of an animal to fool his father that he was his brother Esau and it is a picture of one brother standing inside the other and the outer brother represents an animal, this first life of flesh.
So God say he hates Esau but it's not an individual that God hates, it is the selfish desires of the flesh that he hates.
Just like the New Testament teaches that Hagar pertains to this present Jerusalem but how does Hagar pertain to Jerusalem at all, and how does her son Ishmael pertain to the law at all?
Then we are told we have another mother, Sarah who is the Jerusalem above and her son Isaac pertains to the law of grace above and so we are flesh with it's own law and spirit with it's own law.
One for the outer man and one for the hidden man of the heart.
Supposedly, the Messiah brings a new covenant for Ephraim and Judah and he takes these two and makes them one, and so it is said that there is no difference between Gentile and Jew, no difference between slave and free man or male and female because two became one so that all people are female by flesh with a hidden man of the heart, and all people are slaves in this body but there is a free man of the heart, and all people are gentile by flesh but there is a hidden Jew of the heart and just like the two wolves, whichever you feed will rule, but still I believe that the Jews are the kings of this Earth and should be treated accordingly.
Sorry, just my rambling opinions, gotta say something today.
Cain killed the spiritual hidden man within himself, and this is what I take from that story. We saw Jacob put on the skins of an animal to fool his father that he was his brother Esau and it is a picture of one brother standing inside the other and the outer brother represents an animal, this first life of flesh.
So God say he hates Esau but it's not an individual that God hates, it is the selfish desires of the flesh that he hates.
Just like the New Testament teaches that Hagar pertains to this present Jerusalem but how does Hagar pertain to Jerusalem at all, and how does her son Ishmael pertain to the law at all?
Then we are told we have another mother, Sarah who is the Jerusalem above and her son Isaac pertains to the law of grace above and so we are flesh with it's own law and spirit with it's own law.
One for the outer man and one for the hidden man of the heart.
Supposedly, the Messiah brings a new covenant for Ephraim and Judah and he takes these two and makes them one, and so it is said that there is no difference between Gentile and Jew, no difference between slave and free man or male and female because two became one so that all people are female by flesh with a hidden man of the heart, and all people are slaves in this body but there is a free man of the heart, and all people are gentile by flesh but there is a hidden Jew of the heart and just like the two wolves, whichever you feed will rule, but still I believe that the Jews are the kings of this Earth and should be treated accordingly.
Sorry, just my rambling opinions, gotta say something today.
Those are interesting interpretations, though I worry at how much influence the Greek New Testament seems to be exerting on how we read the Hebrew Bible. I must ask why there is a need to move beyond the plain sense of the narratives themselves however. The texts themselves seem relatively intact and make coherent sense from a narrative stance.
But I suppose we have Paul to blame for that (as usual) and his interpretation of Malachi.
I assume you are quoting from Romans 9 - concerning God's supposed hatred of Esau:
As it is written,
"I have loved Jacob,
but I have hated Esau."
(Romans 9:13 NRSV)
The overall context of the passage, as it is found in Romans, is one of contention among many, for it gave rise to the theory of Predestination - that no matter what choices we make, some of us are just doomed. The context and following verses make this clear:
What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
(Romans 9:14-15 Ibid.)
We can disagree or agree on whether it is "just" for God to condemn or save people regardless of their actions, but Paul clearly felt that regardless of the actions of Jacob and Esau in their lifetimes, God had already determined what would happen.
This stems from the anti-Edom oracle of Malachi in the Hebrew Bible. As usual, Jacob represents Israel and Esau represents Edom - though by the time this prophetic work was written, Edom was supposedly a "desolation":
An oracle. The word of YHWH to Israel by Malachi.
I have loved you, says YHWH. But you say, "How have you loved us?"
Is not Esau Jacob's brother? says YHWH.
Yet I have loved Jacob but I have hated Esau;
I have made his hill country a desolation and his heritage a desert for jackals.
(Malachi 1:1-3 NRSV, w. DN)
The context of Malachi's oracle - a message from God, thus the term "Malachi" - probably not a name, but merely "My messenger" in Hebrew - is to demonstrate the power of God and his ability to save Israel, if only they put their trust in him. There doesn't seem to be any indication of Predestination (as Paul read it), but rather the usual condemnation of Edom, which nation Genesis 36:1 identified as stemming from Esau. Thus the Esau/Edom and Jacob/Israel dynamic found in quite a few prophetic oracles.
As I said, interesting interpretation you have devised. I'm not sure I would take Romans and Malachi and backread them into the Pentateuchal Narratives, however, to try to rewrite the plain sense of the Esau/Jacob squabble - or even the Cain/Able strife.
So God say he hates Esau but it's not an individual that God hates, it is the selfish desires of the flesh that he hates.
A typical apologist interpretation of course. The actual words do not say anything of the sort. It says:
I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob, And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Malachi 1
Note the use of the word 'his'. It is an indication that it is referring to an individual.
Those are interesting interpretations, though I worry at how much influence the Greek New Testament seems to be exerting on how we read the Hebrew Bible. I must ask why there is a need to move beyond the plain sense of the narratives themselves however. The texts themselves seem relatively intact and make coherent sense from a narrative stance.
But I suppose we have Paul to blame for that (as usual) and his interpretation of Malachi.
I assume you are quoting from Romans 9 - concerning God's supposed hatred of Esau:
As it is written,
"I have loved Jacob,
but I have hated Esau."
(Romans 9:13 NRSV)
The overall context of the passage, as it is found in Romans, is one of contention among many, for it gave rise to the theory of Predestination - that no matter what choices we make, some of us are just doomed. The context and following verses make this clear:
What then are we to say? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
(Romans 9:14-15 Ibid.)
We can disagree or agree on whether it is "just" for God to condemn or save people regardless of their actions, but Paul clearly felt that regardless of the actions of Jacob and Esau in their lifetimes, God had already determined what would happen.
This stems from the anti-Edom oracle of Malachi in the Hebrew Bible. As usual, Jacob represents Israel and Esau represents Edom - though by the time this prophetic work was written, Edom was supposedly a "desolation":
An oracle. The word of YHWH to Israel by Malachi.
I have loved you, says YHWH. But you say, "How have you loved us?"
Is not Esau Jacob's brother? says YHWH.
Yet I have loved Jacob but I have hated Esau;
I have made his hill country a desolation and his heritage a desert for jackals.
(Malachi 1:1-3 NRSV, w. DN)
The context of Malachi's oracle - a message from God, thus the term "Malachi" - probably not a name, but merely "My messenger" in Hebrew - is to demonstrate the power of God and his ability to save Israel, if only they put their trust in him. There doesn't seem to be any indication of Predestination (as Paul read it), but rather the usual condemnation of Edom, which nation Genesis 36:1 identified as stemming from Esau. Thus the Esau/Edom and Jacob/Israel dynamic found in quite a few prophetic oracles.
As I said, interesting interpretation you have devised. I'm not sure I would take Romans and Malachi and backread them into the Pentateuchal Narratives, however, to try to rewrite the plain sense of the Esau/Jacob squabble - or even the Cain/Able strife.
Let it sink in and meanwhile, let me tell you a great thing I learned of Romans.
Did you know that Elijah is only sent to the Northern kingdom and that those sons of the prophets were just from the Northern kingdom , not Judah?
When Paul speaks of those 7000, Let's take a look at them.
Elijah was sent to the kingdom of Ephraim and this was Ahab and Jezebel, and Elijah said,'' Lord, I am the only one,'' but what does the Lord say?
''I have reserved 7000 men.''
HERE are those 7000 men.
1 Kings 20
15Then he mustered the young men of the rulers of the provinces, and there were 232; and after them he mustered all the people, even all the sons of Israel, 7,000.…
You are under the assumption that Paul is speaking of Jews in general but when he mentions those 7000 reserved in Israel, Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin of the Northern Kingdom, not the Southern kingdom, and all the disciples were of the kingdom of Ephraim, not the kingdom of Judah. Paul and the disciples were of the kingdom of Ephraim which became known as the ten lost tribes, the land of Joseph, the land of Naphtali and Zebulun, and when these people had been oppressed for 700 years before Christ came, Ephraim did not exist except in that there were 7000 reserved men and Paul was one of them and he is giving their history in Romans.
The ten lost tribes have a promise after they became gentile that Messiah would come and give them a betrothal as a redeeming betrothal does, this betrothal redeems them into Israel and the Jews already had a betrothal.
John was sent out as the friend of the bridegroom to fulfill what Hosea had promised to the lost kingdom of Ephraim, and we say that Jesus brought a new covenant for Ephraim and Judah and nobody else. But Messiah couldn't possibly bring a new covenant for Judah and Ephraim UNLESS he fulfilled the promise of betrothal to take a bunch of gentiles and betroth them unto himself and thereby redeeming them under the name of ,'' Israel.''
Elijah and John are not sent to Jews, and Gentile have a covenant ONLY BECAUSE THEY RETURN AS EPHRAIM MUST RETURN.
What does Ephraim the Gentile have to do to come repenting back to his roots?
If you are not Ephraim and you are not Judah then you have no covenant but we are taught that Messiah came and took a Jew and a Gentile, and he made them one.
Of course the gentile is Ephraim the prodigal nation and the only reason Jesus tells us the story of the Prodigal son is the fact that the Northern kingdom IS that prodigal nation, the land of Joseph, the ten lost tribes called,'' Israel, and known as the kingdom of Ephraim.
So in the beginning Gentiles rejected all their former Pagan ways and they converted to Judaism and Christianity was a legal sect of Judaism for over 100 years.
Then these new people of the new house of Israel had done just exactly what the first king of Israel did.
Now Christianity would follow the ways of the first kingdom of Israel, Jeroboam and by the sins of the first King of Israel has Christianity fallen, fallen.
1 Kings 12
Jeroboam's Idolatry 25Then Jeroboam built Shechem in mount Ephraim, and dwelt therein; and went out from thence, and built Penuel. 26And Jeroboam said in his heart, Now shall the kingdom return to the house of David: 27If this people go up to do sacrifice in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then shall the heart of this people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah, and they shall kill me, and go again to Rehoboam king of Judah. 28Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. 29And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan.
The day Israel left David is the same day repeating itself when Christianity left Judah, they left the covenant and half their body. Jesus came to make one servant out of two and now that servant has been cut in half. Gentiles must return, Jews cannot, but unless the two become one, we are lost. When the rubber meets the road people will either stand with God's worship system or they will stand with their own, their own worship system created or adopted by themselves. I mean, so you keep the Sukkot and pray for the rain of Shemini Atzert?
When you see those 7000 men die in Revelation, they are those same reserved 7000 that has been since the days of Elijah.
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(out of reps for now).
