Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'm sure there must be a logical deduction in there somewhere, because if they were attempting to remove the onus off of G-d, they missed the one where G-d claims to create evil...
You're right about that, I think.
In line with the overall theme of this thread, the Biblical god certainly does come off as being slightly "demonic" at times - more so than any "Satan" entity we find, imagined or real. Ignoring the question of whether the violence of God is justified when seemingly warranted by disobedient humans, there remains the enormous issue of the punishment of the "innocent".
Plenty of passages paint a dark god who wields his sword without any apparent measure of justice. The punishment of the children of transgressors is especially troublesome:
you are not to bow down to them [i.e."other gods"],
you are not to serve them,
for I, YHWH your God,
am a jealous God,
calling-to-account the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons, to the third and fourth (generation)
of those that hate me,
but showing loyalty to the thousandth
of those that love me,
of those that keep my commandments.
(Exodus 20:5-6 SB Fox)
You are not to prostrate yourselves to them, you are not to serve them,
for I, YHWH your God, am a jealous God,
calling-to-account the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons to the third and to the fourth (generation) of those that hate me,
but showing loyalty to thousands
of those that love me, of those that keep my commandments.
(Deut 5:9-10 ibid.)
This could definitely be termed "arbitrary", as it is difficult to justify the punishment of one's children for your own "sins". But this is exactly the theology that the Deuteronomistic Historian used as a justification for the Exile: the sins of the people and their rulers in going after other gods.
Remember, YHWH, what happened to us;
Consider, and see our disgrace.
Our land is turned over to strangers;
Our houses, to foreigners.
We have become orphans, fatherless;
Our mothers are like widows.
We pay money to drink our own water,
And must buy our own wood.
A yoke has been set on our neck;
We are weary, and have no rest.
We made a pact with Egypt;
And with Assyria, to get enough bread.
Our fathers sinned, and are no more,
And we suffer for their iniquities.
(Lamentations 5:1-7 AB Hillers)
This problematic theological view was later criticized by several prophets, and was a particular focus of the prophet Ezekiel:
The word of YHWH came to me: What are you doing bandying this proverb on the soil of Israel, "Fathers eat unripe grapes and their sons' teeth are set on edge"?
By my life! declares Lord YHWH, you shall have no more occasion for bandying this proverb in Israel! See, all persons are mine; the person of the father and that of the son are alike mine; it is the person who sins that shall die.
(Ezekiel 18:1-5 AB Greenberg)
"Believe me, days are coming - YHWH's word - when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed both of men and of beasts. And, just as I kept watch over them to uproot and tear down, to raze, destroy, and do hurt, so I will keep watch over them to build and to plant - YHWH's word.
In those days they will no longer say,
'The fathers ate sour grapes;
But it's the children's teeth that rasp.'
No, every one shall die for his own iniquity. Whatever man eats sour grapes, it will be his own teeth that rasp."
(Jeremiah 31:27-30 AB Bright)
These later prophets and scribes had issues with the idea that God punished the children of sinners - it didn't seem "Just". As you pointed out in your post, God is ultimately the source of all good and evil. We find that in a passage from Isaiah I cited earlier, and in the Book of Job (which I may or may not have cited, I don't remember).
This was just one example of God's seemingly capricious and dark nature and the inner-biblical interpretations that attempted to deal with it. The Biblical authors were constantly in dialogue with those who had come before them. After all, what is religion if it remains stale and unchanging? I'm sure you're well aware of this important principle in Judaism and the great wealth of Rabbinic exegesis that has flourished using this principle. With the great monotheistic claims of Isaiah, Biblical authors had no choice but to attribute Evil to God - after all, he was now seen as not just the tribal god of Israel, but as the GOD of the entire Universe. But then the problem of Evil arises, the so-called problem of Theodicy.
So was the "Satan" of Chronicles an attempt to start offloading some of God's excess baggage onto a scapegoat? Or was "Satan" seen as an offshoot of God (an "Avatar", according to Benjamin Sommer in The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel, 2011 Cambridge) ) similar to how the מַלְאָךְ יהוה might have been just an avatar of God in a few passages which conflate the two?
In line with the overall theme of this thread, the Biblical god certainly does come off as being slightly "demonic" at times - more so than any "Satan" entity we find, imagined or real. Ignoring the question of whether the violence of God is justified when seemingly warranted by disobedient humans, there remains the enormous issue of the punishment of the "innocent".
Plenty of passages paint a dark god who wields his sword without any apparent measure of justice. The punishment of the children of transgressors is especially troublesome:
you are not to bow down to them [i.e."other gods"],
you are not to serve them,
for I, YHWH your God,
am a jealous God,
calling-to-account the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons, to the third and fourth (generation)
of those that hate me,
but showing loyalty to the thousandth
of those that love me,
of those that keep my commandments.
(Exodus 20:5-6 SB Fox)
You are not to prostrate yourselves to them, you are not to serve them,
for I, YHWH your God, am a jealous God,
calling-to-account the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons to the third and to the fourth (generation) of those that hate me,
but showing loyalty to thousands
of those that love me, of those that keep my commandments.
(Deut 5:9-10 ibid.)
This could definitely be termed "arbitrary", as it is difficult to justify the punishment of one's children for your own "sins". But this is exactly the theology that the Deuteronomistic Historian used as a justification for the Exile: the sins of the people and their rulers in going after other gods.
Remember, YHWH, what happened to us;
Consider, and see our disgrace.
Our land is turned over to strangers;
Our houses, to foreigners.
We have become orphans, fatherless;
Our mothers are like widows.
We pay money to drink our own water,
And must buy our own wood.
A yoke has been set on our neck;
We are weary, and have no rest.
We made a pact with Egypt;
And with Assyria, to get enough bread.
Our fathers sinned, and are no more,
And we suffer for their iniquities.
(Lamentations 5:1-7 AB Hillers)
This problematic theological view was later criticized by several prophets, and was a particular focus of the prophet Ezekiel:
The word of YHWH came to me: What are you doing bandying this proverb on the soil of Israel, "Fathers eat unripe grapes and their sons' teeth are set on edge"?
By my life! declares Lord YHWH, you shall have no more occasion for bandying this proverb in Israel! See, all persons are mine; the person of the father and that of the son are alike mine; it is the person who sins that shall die.
(Ezekiel 18:1-5 AB Greenberg)
"Believe me, days are coming - YHWH's word - when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed both of men and of beasts. And, just as I kept watch over them to uproot and tear down, to raze, destroy, and do hurt, so I will keep watch over them to build and to plant - YHWH's word.
In those days they will no longer say,
'The fathers ate sour grapes;
But it's the children's teeth that rasp.'
No, every one shall die for his own iniquity. Whatever man eats sour grapes, it will be his own teeth that rasp."
(Jeremiah 31:27-30 AB Bright)
These later prophets and scribes had issues with the idea that God punished the children of sinners - it didn't seem "Just". As you pointed out in your post, God is ultimately the source of all good and evil. We find that in a passage from Isaiah I cited earlier, and in the Book of Job (which I may or may not have cited, I don't remember).
This was just one example of God's seemingly capricious and dark nature and the inner-biblical interpretations that attempted to deal with it. The Biblical authors were constantly in dialogue with those who had come before them. After all, what is religion if it remains stale and unchanging? I'm sure you're well aware of this important principle in Judaism and the great wealth of Rabbinic exegesis that has flourished using this principle. With the great monotheistic claims of Isaiah, Biblical authors had no choice but to attribute Evil to God - after all, he was now seen as not just the tribal god of Israel, but as the GOD of the entire Universe. But then the problem of Evil arises, the so-called problem of Theodicy.
So was the "Satan" of Chronicles an attempt to start offloading some of God's excess baggage onto a scapegoat? Or was "Satan" seen as an offshoot of God (an "Avatar", according to Benjamin Sommer in The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel, 2011 Cambridge) ) similar to how the מַלְאָךְ יהוה might have been just an avatar of God in a few passages which conflate the two?
There are those that see three different views that seem to be coallated into one, Yahwists, Priestly and, if memory serves, the Israelist...Each writing from their own point of view (there might also have been a forth view, the Elohists)...
Last edited by Richard1965; 07-10-2016 at 06:56 AM..
Demons and Satan are recognized in many religions around the world, not just Christianity.
When a man insists on neglecting God in rebellion , he is with out God's influence, and thus subject by that rebellion that identifies with Satan and the fallen angels.(demons)
Jesus said," Satan is a liar and the father of it." a rebellious one's inspiration .
Ever notice how rebellious people tend to congregate against God and morality?
You don't have to believe in him or his existence, never the less he is an influence, and there are a great many especially those of illuminati and political power that do worship Satan, and know the influence first hand, because they choose it.
God does not necessarily cause bad things to happen ,so much as there are things bound to happen, and those that are in relationship and listen to God can be instructed to move from that line of fire.
The rest, as they say, is history.
I have had my own confrontations with demons , had my losses and victories, so I know how real he is.
Temptation is one thing, but nearly being nearly choked to death is another, I do not take lightly.
There are those that see three different views that seem to be coallated into one, Yahwists, Priestly and, if memory serves, the Israelist...Each writing from their own point of view (there might also have been a forth view, the Elohists)...
Yes, the Priestly, Yahwist, Elohist and the Deuteronomist are the standard names. The Deuteronomistic History is said to be primarily one school of tradition and comprises the main history from Deuteronomy through Joshua, Samuel and Kings. Probably written in or post-Exile, it puts the blame of Israel and Judah's fall on the people and several of their kings. The History and Isaiah assists by turning the nationalist god YHWH into a Universal God who manufactured the Exile to punish them. It is no longer a matter of "who's god is stronger" (Babylon vs Judah) - it is all part of the punishment of God.
Thus, the proverb of the sour grapes. Of course, this theology had to be altered if the people in Exile wished to have any hope of return - thus prophets like Jeremiah and Ezekiel, the latter expressing that forgiveness was always available and not dependent on past deeds, but on one's current deeds. Thus the Judahites could retain a hope of Divine salvation and a return to their land.
The Chronicler, who gives us our "Satan", wrote his history much, much later. So one must explore how the idea of Evil and God changed by his time.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
And people that believe this tripe are allowed to VOTE! It's very worrying. 
