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No it isn't. Ask your god to keep you safe and then go and jump off a very high building. I guarantee, without a shadow of a doubt, that your god will not save you and you will die.
Not possible. If something is perfect then it cannot become imperfect. If it does then it was never perfect in the first place.
It is. That's why its called 'perfect'.
It was your god that created Satan. Satan was simply carrying out the plan of your god...if you believe the nonsense in the first place of course.
Now all you have to do is show that the Bible is true.
Satan is man...Jesus was tempted by his own human nature...
Because Satan is a murderer (starting with the first man and women and subsequently their descendants) and is the father of the lie (again referring to Satan's interaction with the first man/woman). John 8:44 in relevant part, "He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
What a terrible verse to partially quote, a verse that has resulted in an enormous amount of anti-semitism over the last 2,000 years and the popular idea that the Jews are related to the devil! Let me give the verse before it, though the entire passage of 8:31-59 is unfortunately illuminating:
You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
(John 8:44 NSRV)
The author of the Gospel of John was no friend of the Jews.
Putting aside the terribly anti-semitic nature of the Gospel of John and the terrible atrocities it helped usher in, the "murder" the author is referencing is probably that of Abel by Cain.
The Greek New Testament references this elsewhere:
The children of God and the children of the devil are revealed in this way:
all who do not do what is right are not from God,
nor are those who do not love their brothers and sisters.
For this is the message you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. We must not be like Cain who was from the evil one and murdered his brother.
(I John 3:10-12 NRSV)
This ties in perfectly with the Gospel's anti-Jewish stance, for there had been traditions that Cain had not been sired by Adam, but by the diabolical angel Samael - basically Satan or the serpent. The Palestinian Targum (Ben Uzziel) mentions in Genesis 5:3 that Cain was not sired by Adam:
And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begat Sheth, who had the likeness of his image and of his similitude: for before had Hava born Kain, who was not like to him; and Habel was killed by his hand.
(Targum Ben Uzziel Gen. 5:3)
This thread is followed elsewhere:
Having been made pregnant by the seed of the devil ... she brought forth
a son.
(Tertullian, On Patience 5:15)
First adultery came into being, afterward murder. And he [Cain] was begotten
in adultery, for he was the child of the serpent. So he became a murderer,
just like his father, and he killed his brother.
([Gnostic] Gospel of Philip 61:5-10)
And Adam knew about his wife Eve that she had conceived by Sammael the
[wicked] angel of the Lord, and she became pregnant and gave birth to
Cain. He resembled the upper ones [angels] and not the lower ones, and she
[therefore] said, "I have acquired a man, indeed, an angel of the Lord:'
(Targum Pseudo-Jonathan Gen. 4:1)
The serpent came into her and she became pregnant with Cain, as it says,
''And the man knew his wife Eve:' What did he know? That she was already
pregnant [from someone else].
(Pirqei deR. Eliezer 21)
These interpretations largely stem from the difficult passage in Genesis in which Eve is said to have gotten pregnant "with/with the help of the LORD" - either translation is possible, but the literal reading is simply "with".
The point is that there had been ongoing traditions that the Greek New Testament authors would have been very familiar with. Many of these traditions were not fringe ideas, but were fairly well known and accepted as part and parcel of interpreting the Jewish and Christian tradition.
The interpretation that the devil was a murderer appears to have stemmed from these traditions concerning the conception of Cain. Readings that the devil was a murderer due to his association with the serpent in the Garden were largely post-Biblical (see the 4th Century AD Apostolic Constitutions VIII 7:5). The only other reference I can think of offhand is from the Wisdom of Solomon 2:24, but it's not explicit that the devil is a murderer.
Satan is man...Jesus was tempted by his own human nature...
Both Satan and Jesus had the same father- the same creator. Nature and human nature is basically evil. We are through the teachings of Jesus - supposed to over come nature and be super nature...in other words dominate evil. This is the game of life and our purpose - to become more than just mindless animals. "I will make them a little lower than the angels" - We as human animals have an evolutionary mission to rise above evil....first you have to understand what evil is and not to fear it...but manage it.
I just don't understand why Satan is supposed to be a baddie but the Biblical god all that is good? The deeds attributed to god are highly unpleasant to say the least, and indicate the entity is very deranged. Although poor Satan is always badmouthed, no actual misdeeds have been attributed to him.
He's making use of Law to lead to humans' second death.
Because you think literally an eternity of screaming ceaseless torture in curling, licking flames is a good punishment for ONE thought crime (i.e. "I have my doubts that Jesus is mankind's savior")?
That was my tipoff.
As always, nice speaking with you, Viz.
Actually, no. No one goes to hell simply because of ONE thought crime. No one is perfect until one day they accidentally have a bad thought.
No--people go to hell because they have rebelled against the sovereign creator of the universe. To spend an eternity with him that they hate would be hell in itself.
A law exists, and no logical explanation for it has been given other than 'I oppose it.' And when logical arguments are given against the law, they're dismissed rather than taken seriously. The only issue is the duration and method of punishment. Most people caught with drugs aren't tortured forever.
They are punished until justice has been satisfied. Now the question is, what punishment satisfies an eternal, infinitely holy, infinitely good, infinitely just, infinitely loving, infinitely sovereign Creator's justice?
By rebelling against such a being, does a few years in jail suffice? The infinitely just, loving, holy, good, sovereign creator has said no.
They are punished until justice has been satisfied. Now the question is, what punishment satisfies an eternal, infinitely holy, infinitely good, infinitely just, infinitely loving, infinitely sovereign Creator's justice?
By rebelling against such a being, does a few years in jail suffice? The infinitely just, loving, holy, good, sovereign creator has said no.
The idea that your god is infinitely holy, good, just, and in particular loving is quite a stretch given the accounts in his own inspired book.
In his book he seems pretty much like a God who would fry you forever if you didn't pledge allegiance to him. So I guess it makes sense.
Actually, no. No one goes to hell simply because of ONE thought crime. No one is perfect until one day they accidentally have a bad thought.
No--people go to hell because they have rebelled against the sovereign creator of the universe. To spend an eternity with him that they hate would be hell in itself.
What you say here contradicts itself.
You say "no one goes to hell simply because of one thought crime," relating to my saying the thought crime was that Jesus might not be the savior of mankind. Where in the Bible does it state that you get one pass and it's only on the second strike that God drops your butt into hell? That the reason people go to hell is that they've had more than one bad thought (since you say NO ONE would go to hell based on just ONE error - ergo, it must take two or more errors to go to hell, according to you)?
Meanwhile, YES, Christianity is based on ONE solution to salvation (accepting Jesus as Savior) and therefore, having that ONE thought crime would indeed bar one from heaven, according to the Good Book. In fact, that one error is the only reason, according to Christianity, that one goes to hell. Only. Someone can rape infants for 40 years and on his death bed, have an epiphany and beg Christ with sincerity and with remorse to come into his heart and get into heaven. To turn things around, a person could care gently for old people, babies and animals all his/her life, never harm a soul but without saying that ONE thing with sincerity, "I accept Christ as my savior...Jesus, please enter my heart," s/he is not saved - i.e, goes to hell. Period. So you're wrong about "nobody goes to hell based on one thought crime." The entire basis of Christianity is that nobody can live life without committing a single sin and therefore, we "require" Jesus' salvation. If it were okay to commit just one sin, Christianity would go right down the toilet, because we would now know that it WAS possible to be "saved" and not go to hell, if a person really were sinless except perhaps one tiny sin in his/her lifetime. If even ONE person can be self-saved, even hypothetically, then the idea behind Christianity is bogus and incorrect.
Unless you're rewriting the Christianity rules? Have you let Jesus know about this? He may pretty surprised.
Leaving that error of yours aside for the moment: you're also saying "no one is perfect until the day they accidentally have a bad thought." So they're born imperfect, is that correct? Therefore, how does this make sense: "People go to hell because they have rebelled against the sovereign creator of the universe." If they were already imperfect before they ever had a single bad thought, how does it make sense that they already "rebelled" against God if they hadn't yet had a bad thought?
You're tripping all over yourself again, Viz.
"To spend an eternity with Him that they hate would be hell in itself." Unless they don't hate Him but rather, just don't believe in Him. Then they die and there He is. Voila, belief. So how would that be hell? To actually see something, realize it's true, go up and shake its hand and then float around for the rest of eternity on a cloud playing the harp?
They are punished until justice has been satisfied. Now the question is, what punishment satisfies an eternal, infinitely holy, infinitely good, infinitely just, infinitely loving, infinitely sovereign Creator's justice?
By rebelling against such a being, does a few years in jail suffice? The infinitely just, loving, holy, good, sovereign creator has said no.
No, men, who never understood that people would someday be overwhelmingly literate at least in some nations and would be able to read their own passages for themselves, and think for themselves, "said no."
Nothing that's loving, holy or good could think "forever" of shrieking torture was justice for anything. Say, for example, a man rapes infants for 30 years before he dies. What would be just? What would be logical? What would make sense to a three-year-old, much less an all-intelligent God? Well, that's easy, though it makes me a bit squeamish: he could be raped for 30 years. How about that? There, that's exact. That's equal. That's logical. It's gross and ugly but for heaven's sake, at least it makes sense.
Now. Taking that to someone "denying" Jesus for, say, 85 years, what would be logical, just, and reasonable, make sense and satisfy the length of the crime? How about 85 years in hell? Duh.
Anything that is in any way loving, much less "all" loving, could never, ever think "forever" was the appropriate punishment for anyone...for doing anything. Indeed, anything that was all loving - ONLY loving - could not possibly bear the thought of such torture even for an instant, much less INVENT the idea of that torture AND SPECIFICALLY CREATE a place and method for it to happen. Yet more support that the Bible wasn't God-inspired or even inspired by higher thinking, but rather, by terror, superstition and a bloody desire for vengeance that was rather typical of threatened, constantly warring tribes in the first century and earlier.
One's beliefs say a lot about a person, IMO. When a person happily accepts blood-thirsty, horrific, nightmarish ideas such as this one, and further, with a smile of beatific joy on one's face, I tend to back away...slowly. I mean if a person thinks this sort of thing is not only okay but is beautiful and holy and "loving", well...yikes.
No. If you believe the Bible, then the only murderer, ever, and forever, was and is God. God kills. God invented death. God made the rules for death. Nothing can happen without God wanting it to so not a single death of a single person, animal or plant ever created on this earth has happened without God's sanction. Even "a person killing another person" is something allowable due to God's own laws, God's own rules, God's own creation and, according to many, God's specific plan, down to the letter. Down to, literally, the last hair on any given person's head.
Indeed, God ruled and created (again, if one believes the Bible) that death must occur in order for others to live. We can't not kill, if we want to live...because of God's decision (to institute death as "a punishment"...illogically, to plants and animals too although these didn't rebel), God's methodology and God's doing. No living thing on this entire planet can live without consuming something else that was once living, plant or animal. God created that killing IS REQUIRED of EVERY SINGLE living thing on this earth...man didn't do that. Plants didn't do that. Animals didn't do it. Satan didn't do it.
Even when "Satan murdered" or, if you will, "Cain murdered," that was God's creation, God's intention, God's plan, and God's method. Unless you believe Satan, man and so on can do their own creation outside of God's will, that we are equal to God in creative ability.
The only murderer, ever, and forever, was, and is, God.
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