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Well, I don't see morality as a way to "win" a "reward". I just see morality as doing the right thing and treating people as equal human beings.
Maybe that's why I was always just a little uncomfortable as a Christian...I wasn't out to get something for being a good person. I saw it as an intrinsic reward, not an extrinsic reward.
I was about to respond with exactly what you posted. I've posted one of my favorite quotes about virtue before but here it is again: sought after virtue is not virtue. The group I was in set Jesus out as an example on how to gain everlasting life on paradise earth. Jesus came to die not live. You couldn't do what Jesus did if you were worried about covering your ass.
I was about to respond with exactly what you posted. I've posted one of my favorite quotes about virtue before but here it is again: sought after virtue is not virtue. The group I was in set Jesus out as an example on how to gain everlasting life on paradise earth. Jesus came to die not live. You couldn't do what Jesus did if you were worried about covering your ass.
I think that's very good!
It's like when I look at politicians, who so often seem to say what's "right" based on the latest polls, rather than what just simply the right thing to do. And we can all sometimes be a little bit like politicians.
I am a bit reminded of a talk my favorite aunt had with me when I said I didn't believe in Santa Claus, and she had to "protect" her even younger son from hearing that. She reminded me that the concept of Santa Claus was how I felt inside when I gave that favorite teacher a gift, not that I got special preferential treatment from the teacher because of the gift. It was a great explanation to give a 10 year old...and has remained with me for 57 more years.
What group specifically states they are not Christians and then the members go on to say they are? Don't say JW because they do believe in Jesus and the Bible. If you are talking about groups such as the JWs then I would be happy to explain it further to you if you want.
A lot of Christian groups didn't notice when the mainline Protestants took the title "Christian" away from them. Because of the horrors of the Christian-caused holocaust and witch-murders, not too many of the religiously-minded wanted to be associated with the word "Christian." They saw themselves as "Roman Catholic" or "Latter Day Saint" or "Jehova's Witness" or whatever else, rather than being "naked Christ and only Jesus, no one else is to Jesus's glory but Paul" radicals. Because of this, neoChristian American-based sects such as Southern Baptist and Northern Baptist and Pentecostal were able to have many of those other denominations equate the word "Christian" with "Sola-Scriptura Fundamentalist" or "Magna-HolySpirit Fundamentalist" (like Quakers and such). Not as may people as the Sola-Scriptura crowd were hung up on that they had to be called what Paul merely allowed (according to various canons).
A lot of Christian groups didn't notice when the mainline Protestants took the title "Christian" away from them. Because of the horrors of the Christian-caused holocaust and witch-murders, not too many of the religiously-minded wanted to be associated with the word "Christian." They saw themselves as "Roman Catholic" or "Latter Day Saint" or "Jehova's Witness" or whatever else, rather than being "naked Christ and only Jesus, no one else is to Jesus's glory but Paul" radicals. Because of this, neoChristian American-based sects such as Southern Baptist and Northern Baptist and Pentecostal were able to have many of those other denominations equate the word "Christian" with "Sola-Scriptura Fundamentalist" or "Magna-HolySpirit Fundamentalist" (like Quakers and such). Not as may people as the Sola-Scriptura crowd were hung up on that they had to be called what Paul merely allowed (according to various canons).
That's an interesting perspective. I think you may be right. And actually, if someone were to say, "Mormons aren't traditional Christians or mainstream Christians," most Mormons wouldn't object. We know we're different, and we accept that. But when people say we're not Christians at all, that's a lie. If you worship Jesus Christ, what else can you possibly be called?
I didn't correct you for making a statement about animism. I corrected you for using the word "claim."
Please stop misrepresenting me.
You have a problem with people saying they are Christian when you believe otherwise.
The problem isn't theirs. It's yours.
This 110%.
I subscribe to Buddhist, Hindu, Shinto, Taoist, and some sort of nature pantheism.
Yet I occasionally self-identify as Christian because to me I see Christianity as an extension of my religious growth. I believe Jesus is found in humans, in nature, and in the self. It is the Couage to Be. To want to saved, to live again.
What I would object to is ppl misrepresenting Christianity to undermine it. As in, claim be Christian on tv then go out and blow away a ton of ppl. Or getting ordained as a priest then molesting little boys. **** these ppl.
What I don't object to is ppl with nontraditional beliefs. I believe it is possible to be an atheist and Christian. Because Christianity is about the Christ as Savior, and about the resurrection, and about grace. Theism doesn't matter.
If you worship Jesus Christ, what else can you possibly be called?
I think BF thinks you're not worshiping Jesus correctly. That is what it ultimately comes down to for fundamentalists on any topic: you're not doing it right. And fully deconstructed: You're not doing it our way.
That said, I can understand why if someone feels you engage in heresy such as violating sola scriptura that it doesn't matter what else you do. They can simply dismiss your worship of Jesus as an insincere ruse. They shouldn't, but can and do. Why? Because there are certain key signifiers of group belonging and you've violated one or more of them, therefore you don't fit the pattern. There are after all verses in the Bible about false brothers and such.
So we could say that while technically by one argument worshiping Christ = Christian, some groups will have a more extensive and detailed list of requirements beyond that. Fundamentalists will deny it, but they worship the Bible, not just Jesus. God must be "the God of the Bible". Both must be exclusive and substituting anything else for either is sacrilege.
Other groups will have circular reasoning deployed. Catholics for example will see engaging in the sacraments, particularly communion and baptism, as very important. To a Catholic however you need a Catholic priest to administer those sacraments, so how would one partake as a Mormon?
What I am getting at is signifiers of group membership for significant numbers of Christians, are not a sufficient pattern match to Mormonism. I'm not arguing it should be so, just that it is. Mormonism is a pattern match for Christians who aren't very attached to their own customs and conventions as the Only Way To God (tm) and they would be happy with your veneration of Christ as the sole requirement to share the general label Christian. More tribal types will have some degree of malfunction with it however.
I think BF thinks you're not worshiping Jesus correctly. That is what it ultimately comes down to for fundamentalists on any topic: you're not doing it right. And fully deconstructed: You're not doing it our way.
That said, I can understand why if someone feels you engage in heresy such as violating sola scriptura that it doesn't matter what else you do. They can simply dismiss your worship of Jesus as an insincere ruse. They shouldn't, but can and do. Why? Because there are certain key signifiers of group belonging and you've violated one or more of them, therefore you don't fit the pattern. There are after all verses in the Bible about false brothers and such.
So we could say that while technically by one argument worshiping Christ = Christian, some groups will have a more extensive and detailed list of requirements beyond that. Fundamentalists will deny it, but they worship the Bible, not just Jesus. God must be "the God of the Bible". Both must be exclusive and substituting anything else for either is sacrilege.
Other groups will have circular reasoning deployed. Catholics for example will see engaging in the sacraments, particularly communion and baptism, as very important. To a Catholic however you need a Catholic priest to administer those sacraments, so how would one partake as a Mormon?
What I am getting at is signifiers of group membership for significant numbers of Christians, are not a sufficient pattern match to Mormonism. I'm not arguing it should be so, just that it is. Mormonism is a pattern match for Christians who aren't very attached to their own customs and conventions as the Only Way To God (tm) and they would be happy with your veneration of Christ as the sole requirement to share the general label Christian. More tribal types will have some degree of malfunction with it however.
That's an excellent statement and summary of the way it is.
I'm a Buddhist and atheist, but that latter part came fairly recently. Until then I considered myself a Buddhist/Christian. A couple of Christmases ago I went to Congregational church for Christmas services just out of curiosity. As I sat through the ceremony and thought about what was going on, and how it was so very similar to what I had seen in other denominations, all I could think about was -- why can't these Christian churches get together. In Colorado Springs there are so many different Christian denominations. Such pettiness. I think it would make Christ vomit.
Well, Mordant, you would be absolutely correct in expoinding on the original OP, but you see BF CHANGED the meaning midcourse and is NOW claiming that it is about organizations that have SELF-identified as not Christian, but some of whose members are now claiming to BE Christian.
The fact that there are NO such organizations does not seem to have any bearing on his claim, which therefore can be seen as a dodge to get out from under the manifest inanity of the original OP.
But thanks for your contribution to the ORIGINAL subject.
That's an excellent statement and summary of the way it is.
I'm a Buddhist and atheist, but that latter part came fairly recently. Until then I considered myself a Buddhist/Christian. A couple of Christmases ago I went to Congregational church for Christmas services just out of curiosity. As I sat through the ceremony and thought about what was going on, and how it was so very similar to what I had seen in other denominations, all I could think about was -- why can't these Christian churches get together. In Colorado Springs there are so many different Christian denominations. Such pettiness. I think it would make Christ vomit.
May be drifting off -topic, but I recall that Chistian Buddhism (or Christianty -rebirth) was quite popular at one time, and you still see it about.
How does it work? Jesus to get you doing good deeds and good deeds getting you top of the range rebirth?
I would claim that the only Gentile Christians in this world are converts to Judaism as it was in the first Christianity, and that all others are Babylonian in nature.
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