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I think I understand the why on this one. At least partially. Women can't lead themselves and their children into the Celestial Kingdom. Not all the way up to the top. So it might be considered unfair to wife #1 to be knocked down a rung for eternity and only wife #2 Exalted.
Honestly if I were a Mormon woman and believed in all this, I would surely NOT give permission to be unsealed unless I was getting sealed again. That would be crazy, to give up my place in the highest levels of eternity. I'd rather deal with being sealed to my ex even if that meant his new wife or 3rd wife or whatever.
The article I linked is from a second wife who doesn't think it's right to be forced into a polygamous eternal life. I understand her feelings about it as well. The Church does harp on how polygamy is absolutely and totally wrong, so that would be hard to deal with for many. The polygamous after-life.
She also goes into an area I think is important too. There is a lot of double talk. They are told they cannot reach the highest levels of the Celestial Kingdom unless they do all of the ABCs here on earth, but when one of them is beyond their control, being married, having children, being black before 1978, they are told not to worry, God will work it out sometime.
That creates a lot of confusion. Is it essential or is it not?
I think it's a lot easier on an internet forum chatting about it to assure that yes, God will work it out. Non-Mormons can be like ok, that's cool. Or not even think about it much at all. But to a Mormon in the church being taught one thing and then this other when they are struggling to find a partner, it isn't so easy.
It is often described as excruciating.
One of the things I liked about the show Big Love was that they went into all of these dilemmas over the course of the series. This one was touched on when the mother of the first wife was getting remarried. She got unsealed from her ex, even though her new husband did not. The why was told very quickly because the focus was not on that character. Barbara, the first wife, had enough problems of her own.
In fact Barbara has to deal with just about every dilemma that exists in both LDS and FLDS either directly or on behalf of another, and I love the way she comes out of that. She decides she too can be a Priesthood holder and doesn't even need the Church's permission for that. Why not? So many other things seem to be so wishy-washy, change with the times, why not that too?
Reading about that has now brought me back to polygamy and the contention there is no overlap, no confusion on that, etc. I don't agree.
Many Mormons are still unsure about this issue. It was taught for so long that
Quote:
“The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy.”
(Bringham Young).
It's not so easy to break away from a core teaching. The Principle is essential still to fundamentalist Mormons. And many non-fundamentalists struggle to reconcile opposite doctrines.
Currently even the LDS church appears unsure about whether it's required for the highest level of the Afterlife.
Seminary Teacher Resource Manual:
Quote:
"We have no knowledge that plural marriage will be a requirement for exaltation"
In fact Young spoke directly against what the church ended up doing - ending polygamy to save it. He said do not give up your Heavenly rewards for earthly rewards.
I think that the Fundamentalists have a good reason to say they are following the true path. Not all fundamentalists are 'The FLDS', the group whose prophet is Warren Jeffs. What people refer to as The FLDS is an offshoot of the AUB, so I am not sure how they got that designation. The fact that they (fundamentalists in general) are outnumbered doesn't make them wrong.
Of further interest, talking about changing Doctrines causing confusion, many LDS families migrated to the Apostolic United Brethren (AUB) when the 'mainstream' LDS church gave the priesthood to Blacks. They felt the church had gone yet another step away from the original teachings.
Prior to that point, AUB members were encouraged to keep going to mainstream LDS Temples. Polygamists in the mainstream Temples, that is correct. The leader saw no reason to have a separate Temple except for sealing plural marriages.
I would quibble with the AUB because Joseph Smith's teachings are THE original, and he said that discrimination is forbidden by God and gave the priesthood to blacks, but this is what happens when Doctrines change. There are fractures and confusion.
Katzpur has in the past vehemently denied that this practice is occurring. And this in spite of me explaining that my wife is in this EXACT situation. That’s right. My wife, to whom I am legally married, is in fact wife #2 in a polygamous Mormon marriage, sealed to another man who is also sealed to his current wife, polygamous wife #2. The Mormon church has steadfastly refused to cancel her sealing, thus denying her free agency.
It’s very curious, given the church’s very public position that the church has absolutely nothing to do with polygamy, that they in fact refuse to allow people to get out of a polygamous relationship.
Katzpur’s past denial of this is quite interesting, given that she holds herself out as an authority on all things Mormon, and that this practice undeniably exists. I eagerly await her return to this thread, and wonder if she will continue to deny that this happening in the Mormon church.
Katzpur has in the past vehemently denied that this practice is occurring. And this in spite of me explaining that my wife is in this EXACT situation. That’s right. My wife, to whom I am legally married, is in fact wife #2 in a polygamous Mormon marriage, sealed to another man who is also sealed to his current wife, polygamous wife #2. The Mormon church has steadfastly refused to cancel her sealing, thus denying her free agency.
It’s very curious, given the church’s very public position that the church has absolutely nothing to do with polygamy, that they in fact refuse to allow people to get out of a polygamous relationship.
Katzpur’s past denial of this is quite interesting, given that she holds herself out as an authority on all things Mormon, and that this practice undeniably exists. I eagerly await her return to this thread, and wonder if she will continue to deny that this happening in the Mormon church.
OK, so in your case, what is the reasoning for the denial? Are you non-Mormon, and she can't get unsealed because she can't be sealed to you? The article I read and provided a link to was not comprehensive on all the reasons people might be denied or granted an un-sealing, but it did talk about this aspect, and how in such a case, the children born of a second marriage that is not sealed, end up sealed to husband #1, even though he has no relation to them. That last part I haven't completely wrapped my mind around yet.
OK, so in your case, what is the reasoning for the denial? Are you non-Mormon, and she can't get unsealed because she can't be sealed to you? The article I read and provided a link to was not comprehensive on all the reasons people might be denied or granted an un-sealing, but it did talk about this aspect, and how in such a case, the children born of a second marriage that is not sealed, end up sealed to husband #1, even though he has no relation to them. That last part I haven't completely wrapped my mind around yet.
I spent 25 years in the mormon church before I was able to get out. My wife was mormon when we got married. Over time, she eventually left the church on her own accord. Since we didn't get sealed in a mormon temple, the church won't cancel her sealing to her first husband.
The reason for the denial in my wife's case is the same reason as in ALL cases of this situation - the church believes that they are maintaining the woman's eligibility to go to the highest level of mormon heaven. The sealing will only be cancelled if the woman is getting re-married (and sealed) to a mormon man, or if she brings a lawsuit.
You are correct about what happens to children from the new marriage. My wife and I don't have children together, but if we did, they would be "sealed" to her and her first husband (as a result of their current polygamous situation).
I spent 25 years in the mormon church before I was able to get out. My wife was mormon when we got married. Over time, she eventually left the church on her own accord. Since we didn't get sealed in a mormon temple, the church won't cancel her sealing to her first husband.
The reason for the denial in my wife's case is the same reason as in ALL cases of this situation - the church believes that they are maintaining the woman's eligibility to go to the highest level of mormon heaven. The sealing will only be cancelled if the woman is getting re-married (and sealed) to a mormon man, or if she brings a lawsuit.
You are correct about what happens to children from the new marriage. My wife and I don't have children together, but if we did, they would be "sealed" to her and her first husband (as a result of their current polygamous situation).
Seems like that should be her choice. In the hypothetical I posted above, first wife might not want to give up her way into the highest level, which I understand, but I don't understand that choice being made for the woman. Thank you for explaining that aspect. The only thing I had right in my initial post on this was 'It's complicated'.
As so much in Mormonism is. Even official Mormon websites I browsed this morning have a lot of double talk. It's inherently unavoidable with living Prophets contradicting one another. If polygamy in the afterlife was said to be wrong, that would de-legitimize the plural wives from the past.
And as you say, they do not consider it wrong at all. It's done everyday. Polygamous in the spirit world abounds. Or, do y'all consider this beyond the spirit world? Do you feel you are forced in a sense into an earthly polygamy? Or maybe a type of bigamy, since she is unable to 'divorce' in the temple?
Seems like that should be her choice. In the hypothetical I posted above, first wife might not want to give up her way into the highest level, which I understand, but I don't understand that choice being made for the woman. Thank you for explaining that aspect. The only thing I had right in my initial post on this was 'It's complicated'.
As so much in Mormonism is. Even official Mormon websites I browsed this morning have a lot of double talk. It's inherently unavoidable with living Prophets contradicting one another. If polygamy in the afterlife was said to be wrong, that would de-legitimize the plural wives from the past.
And as you say, they do not consider it wrong at all. It's done everyday. Polygamous in the spirit world abounds. Or, do y'all consider this beyond the spirit world? Do you feel you are forced in a sense into an earthly polygamy? Or maybe a type of bigamy, since she is unable to 'divorce' in the temple?
In order for the mormon church to (honestly) claim that it has nothing whatsoever to do with polygamy, several things have to happen:
1) The teaching that polygamy is necessary for exaltation (as taught by multiple mormon prophets) has to be repudiated as a false doctrine taught by false prophets.
2) D&C 132 has to be stricken as canonized scripture.
3) The church must stop its current practice of sealing mormon men to multiple women.
None of these things will ever happen. And the reason is one of the biggest dirty little secrets of mormonism - that polygamy, as described above, is alive and well in the mormon church.
In order for the mormon church to (honestly) claim that it has nothing whatsoever to do with polygamy, several things have to happen:
1) The teaching that polygamy is necessary for exaltation (as taught by multiple mormon prophets) has to be repudiated as a false doctrine taught by false prophets.
2) D&C 132 has to be stricken as canonized scripture.
3) The church must stop its current practice of sealing mormon men to multiple women.
None of these things will ever happen. And the reason is one of the biggest dirty little secrets of mormonism - that polygamy, as described above, is alive and well in the mormon church.
To clarify, you mean in the sealed sense, not actually having plural wives outside of that context?
To the rest, yeah, they can't do that. If any past prophets were false, or even just wrong, it would cast doubt on the current one.
But I don't think they even want to? The possibility that plural marriage is required to reach Exalted status is still acknowledged. A lot of stories about 'regular' LDS women drawn into polygamy start with husband coming to wife one day and saying we have to follow this teaching or we won't get all of the rewards of Heavenly Father.
I have yet to read about a female being the impetus, but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
Should Mormons be viewed (relative to other Christians) in the same vein as Jews and Muslims? That is, people that see Jesus as a great prophet and read the Bible but have other religious texts outside the Bible to shape their views.
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