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I am not sure I have met many or even any atheists who do think that. Rather what they appear to think is that there is nothing of any value in religion that requires belief without evidence.
An analogy I heard wonderfully made once is to fad diets. There have been some weird diets out there pedaling complete nonsense. But it would be wrong to say "There is no value whatsoever in that diet". Usually every diet has a core of very useful and beneficial advice - around which framework the nonsense part has been constructed.
My position on religion is the same. There are things of value in religion - but none I have found that require that religion or the nonsense it sells. Anything of any use I have found in religion ever - has been perfectly attainable without it.
We can keep the baby without the bathwater. Or as another writer once put it "Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers from the chain, not so that man will wear the chain without any fantasy or consolation but so that he will shake off the chain and cull the living flower."
So again - it is not that there is no value in religion - but that there is no value in religion that we can not attain without religion. To think there is is completely ludicrous.
I am not sure I have met many or even any atheists who do think that. Rather what they appear to think is that there is nothing of any value in religion that requires belief without evidence.
An analogy I heard wonderfully made once is to fad diets. There have been some weird diets out there pedaling complete nonsense. But it would be wrong to say "There is no value whatsoever in that diet". Usually every diet has a core of very useful and beneficial advice - around which framework the nonsense part has been constructed.
My position on religion is the same. There are things of value in religion - but none I have found that require that religion or the nonsense it sells. Anything of any use I have found in religion ever - has been perfectly attainable without it.
We can keep the baby without the bathwater. Or as another writer once put it "Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers from the chain, not so that man will wear the chain without any fantasy or consolation but so that he will shake off the chain and cull the living flower."
So again - it is not that there is no value in religion - but that there is no value in religion that we can not attain without religion. To think there is is completely ludicrous.
That's true. But for some people religion is the only way they are able to attain those things.
What does this have to do with medical sanitation and germs? Some people have only attained sanitation and lack of disease because of religion? Who?
If you don't find any value in religion that's fine. I'm just saying that some many find religion useful, and I think it's wrong to criticize people who do.
It's not about general atheism really. It's about extremists who think that there is no value whatsoever in religion. Which I think is completely ludicrous.
I'm one that thinks there is no value in religion. Explain why that is ludicrous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
That's true. But for some people religion is the only way they are able to attain those things.
For some people it's heroin. What's your point
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
If you don't find any value in religion that's fine. I'm just saying that some many find religion useful, and I think it's wrong to criticize people who do.
Many people find it very useful to inject hard drugs into their veins and to persuade others, including very young people, to do the same. Should we not criticise that?
But for some people religion is the only way they are able to attain those things.
I do not think that is true. I think for some people religion is the only way they _have_ attained such things. But that does not make it the only way they _are able_ to.
Just because someone always goes to work by car for example - that does not mean this is the only way they are able to get to work. It is just the only way they have been doing so.
The issue is that religion in our world comes with a price. It comes with a cost and damage to society. If what little benefit that can be found in religion can be found without that price elsewhere - then the work to remove religion and/or it's effects from our society is justified.
But that you recognize that there is no utility in religion that is not attainable without - is quite the point of agreement. Worth putting a flag in. I admit I did not expect you to grant that point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyRules
If you don't find any value in religion that's fine. I'm just saying that some many find religion useful, and I think it's wrong to criticize people who do.
For most of us - we critique the concepts and ideas - not the people who hold them. Alas other people often can not tell the difference and portray any attack on religion as an attack on the religious.
But people finding something useful even when it is damaging deserves our attention. People find solace in religion, drugs, alcohol, and much more that damage them. So if they could get similar solace in ways that are not damaging - then I think there is a moral onus on us to address that.
That's true. But for some people religion is the only way they are able to attain those things.
That's why we are working (1) to have a world where we don't merely do religious stuff because some of it appears to work, but we determine by tests and checks what really does work and can find out how.
People who want to do religion can do it. They can even publicly explain the value they see in it, but we want a world where this is not peddled as the norm, and anyone who goes public can expect to be called on it. I think we are all tired of the world's men, women and children being fed BS by bods at the top who either believe it, God help us, or find it a useful way to keep exploiting and controlling people.
(1) I know it sounds awfully pretentious for a tiny percentage of a monumentally religious world to talk about transforming it, but the job is two thirds done - a half secular world, even in the middle east, and much more exposure of both atheism and of religion (in rather different ways) than ever before, and it's a mission -statement. If atheism - or world secularism at least - doesn't know where it is going, it won't know what it has to do.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 11-11-2018 at 03:04 AM..
I'm one that thinks there is no value in religion. Explain why that is ludicrous.
For some people it's heroin. What's your point
Many people find it very useful to inject hard drugs into their veins and to persuade others, including very young people, to do the same. Should we not criticise that?
its ludicrous because it counters observations on what people are. "all bad" is just short sighted, unscientific, and immature. You are placing your personal view point as the deciding, the deciding factor for everybody else, even though it counters every observation on what it means to be human. Just like creationist are ludicrous, "religion is all bad" just isn't real. .
the self help portions are good stuff for many people. The focus on love compassion and understanding are good portions of religion. My selfish take ...The charity component is great to people like me too. socialism tendencies forcing there morals/charity on me isn't the way to go either.
when you say "all bad", it just doesn't match observations. A group of people following a set of rituals to help themselves through this crap whole of life isn't ALL bad. No matter what you say, its just a less valid stance.
then, for an atheist like me, I look at history. what stopped religion's horror show? other theist stopped them. so the numbers stayed lower than they could have been. What stopped anti-religious? well, the amount of people to kill stopped them. I mean, that's just a look at history. we can stack up "killing in the name of god" compared to just stalin's anti-religion kill fest. Look at stalin's childhood if you don't believe he was, most definitly killing in the name of anti-religion.
your stance lens towards no religious freedom. The understanding that religious freedom demonstrates a more mature society than anti-religion freedom is a red flag. A red flag that I also see with theist. they, like you, think their statement of belief is what we all should be doing. youre both far less valid.
That's why we are working (1) to have a world where we don't merely do religious stuff because some of it appears to work, but we determine by tests and checks what really does work and can find out how.
People who want to do religion can do it. They can even publicly explain the value they see in it, but we want a world where this is not peddled as the norm, and anyone who goes public can expect to be called on it. I think we are all tired of the world's men, women and children being fed BS by bods at the top who either believe it, God help us, or find it a useful way to keep exploiting and controlling people.
(1) I know it sounds awfully pretentious for a tiny percentage of a monumentally religious world to talk about transforming it, but the job is two thirds done - a half secular world, even in the middle east, and much more exposure of both atheism and of religion (in rather different ways) than ever before, and it's a mission -statement. If atheism - or world secularism at least - doesn't know where it is going, it won't know what it has to do.
I think that atheism is an unexplained psychological condition, just as you may think that about religious fundamentalism. So to hear an atheist say that one day everyone will be atheist sounds crazy. Primates, like giraffes or kittens, are not able to understand everything about the universe, and therefore it is impossible for religion to just disappear.
I think that atheism is an unexplained psychological condition, just as you may think that about religious fundamentalism. So to hear an atheist say that one day everyone will be atheist sounds crazy. Primates, like giraffes or kittens, are not able to understand everything about the universe, and therefore it is impossible for religion to just disappear.
Any chance of you responding to others that answer your posts? Post #45 for example.
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