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I think it would be better to just call it critical thinking. There is nothing closed off about critical thinking. In fact if done properly, critical thinking takes all of consequence into consideration in order to draw the most appropriate conclusion.
As for anyone changing their minds here, my critical thinking tells me the odds of that happening are about as high as God posting a comment in this forum to finally clear up matters for all of us.
"If done properly" is the key here.
Just because secularists choose not to follow religion or have belief in anything spiritual does not automatically give them the edge on critical thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle
I don't think so sub.
Remember atheist have all sorts of beliefs. They range from living planet to cosmic mind and all points in-between. Like Buddhist for example. And a pantheist god is not a deity at all to me. Try not to lump us all into one pot.
Separation of church and state is must. We can't have laws justified solely on "god said so". Its just to dicey.
Atheists run the gamut, I get that.
Never said anything about church or religion per se, certainly not laws based on them.
I'm not anti-secular in the sense that people shouldn't be allowed to their own beliefs, just pointing out that there are many in the secular crowd that are just as rigid and dogmatic as any religion. Seems to be becoming more prevalent, in fact.
To clarify my previous post, secular thinking isn't closed off in and of itself, but human nature often leads it there just like it can with religion.
Also, critical thinking leads some into spirituality. Shouldn't assume they aren't "doing it right", "not getting it", or "reverting to their upbringing"... the typical backlash anyway.
Back to the original thought of this thread: of course one guy's opinion on one bit piece of religious text isn't going to prove or disprove the reality of any god.
"If done properly" is the key here.
Just because secularists choose not to follow religion or have belief in anything spiritual does not automatically give them the edge on critical thinking.
Atheists run the gamut, I get that.
Never said anything about church or religion per se, certainly not laws based on them.
I'm not anti-secular in the sense that people shouldn't be allowed to their own beliefs, just pointing out that there are many in the secular crowd that are just as rigid and dogmatic as any religion. Seems to be becoming more prevalent, in fact.
To clarify my previous post, secular thinking isn't closed off in and of itself, but human nature often leads it there just like it can with religion.
Also, critical thinking leads some into spirituality. Shouldn't assume they aren't "doing it right", "not getting it", or "reverting to their upbringing"... the typical backlash anyway.
Back to the original thought of this thread: of course one guy's opinion on one bit piece of religious text isn't going to prove or disprove the reality of any god.
People should avoid triumphalism.
yes, I tend to agree more with how your phased it here.
And yes, the deity of the major religions is such a limited scope and sequence. lmao, like prayers at a HOA is the reason we should be on a rampage. Most people believe in something that relates to us being in a vastly more complex system.
It just matches science observations and people's experience's so much better than "lack belief because we don't know what we are talking about" and "we don't have to say anything because we are only fighting religion."
Atheist have many "spiritual" type beliefs that are not a deity. Some even go way further than I would even go. Buddhist is the example most people would know, but there are many.
We need to keep spiritual beliefs out of law making. atheist or theist ones.
"If done properly" is the key here.
Just because secularists choose not to follow religion or have belief in anything spiritual does not automatically give them the edge on critical thinking.
Atheists run the gamut, I get that.
Never said anything about church or religion per se, certainly not laws based on them.
I'm not anti-secular in the sense that people shouldn't be allowed to their own beliefs, just pointing out that there are many in the secular crowd that are just as rigid and dogmatic as any religion. Seems to be becoming more prevalent, in fact.
To clarify my previous post, secular thinking isn't closed off in and of itself, but human nature often leads it there just like it can with religion.
Also, critical thinking leads some into spirituality. Shouldn't assume they aren't "doing it right", "not getting it", or "reverting to their upbringing"... the typical backlash anyway.
Back to the original thought of this thread: of course one guy's opinion on one bit piece of religious text isn't going to prove or disprove the reality of any god.
People should avoid triumphalism.
Needless to say, if something isn't done properly, then "all bets are off" in terms of drawing proper conclusion, and with all due respect, I think you're critical thinking needs a little "tweaking" here...
First of all, there are religious people who are secularists, and for good reason. I would argue that proper critical thinking is what has provided the "edge" that has us living in a secular society.
Atheists may "run the gamat" far as some are concerned, but again proper critical thinking should have us recognize that no two people think exactly the same. Of course not. Too often there is confusion about what is simply atheism vs all the other things anyone might include in their bag of opinions and beliefs. Here's something that I believe clears things up a bit for those who otherwise like to complicate what it is to be an atheist generally speaking.
An Atheist's Creed
I believe in a purely material universe that conforms to naturalistic laws and principles.
I believe that the life we have is the only one we will have, that the mind and consciousness are inseparable from the brain, that we cease to exist in any conscious form when we die, and that it is therefore incumbent on us to enable each person to live their one life to the fullest.
I believe in the power of science and reason and rationality to further deepen our understanding of everything around us and to eventually overcome superstition and erase the petty divisions sown by religion, race, ethnicity, and nationality.
I am in awe of the beauty, vastness, and complexity of nature and the universe, and the fact that all arose purely by the working of natural laws.
I believe in the power of ideals such as peace and justice and shared humanity to inspire us to create a free and just world.
I believe in kindness, love, and the human spirit and their ability to overcome challenges and adversity and to create a better world.
I believe in the necessity for credible and objective evidence to sustain any belief and thus deny, because of the absence of such evidence, the existence of each and every aspect of the supernatural.
I refuse to bow, prostrate myself, or otherwise cower before the deities of any religion.
I am neither tempted by the fiction of heaven or any other form of eternal life nor fearful of the fiction of hell.
I choose to live the dignified and exhilarating life of a free-thinker, able to go wherever knowledge and curiosity takes me, without fear of contradicting any dogma.
I love those creeds of yours ... its like the apostles creed. Or reciting the national anthem. Or would that be antinthem? Its just brings such a sense of ... well ... being.
Oh wait, we aren't a religion, forget that ... my bad. Just recite them a few times a month and be done with it.
I love those creeds of yours ... its like the apostles creed. Or reciting the national anthem. Or would that be antinthem? Its just brings such a sense of ... well ... being.
Oh wait, we aren't a religion, forget that ... my bad. Just recite them a few times a month and be done with it.
It was actually a strong believer in God who introduced that creed to me as something of a put down that seemed odd to me. I thought it was a pretty good description of what atheists tend to think, and as such I have since reposted it more than a few times in this forum. Typically for those who seem to badly misunderstand what it means to be an atheist generally speaking. Seems that's you too. You seem wanting to ignore or dismiss or somehow undermine what those words explain and in so doing you are "running from" the simple truth regarding what atheists tend to think and why. Also seems to further demonstrate that you are not the atheist you think you are...
It's not anti-anything. It isn't about a sense of well being. It isn't a religion either. If you were an atheist you would better understand this, but you go ahead and continue this game of playing both sides to the middle rather than simply accept the truth of these matters.
It was actually a strong believer in God who introduced that creed to me as something of a put down that seemed odd to me. I thought it was a pretty good description of what atheists tend to think, and as such I have since reposted it more than a few times in this forum. Typically for those who seem to badly misunderstand what it means to be an atheist generally speaking. Seems that's you too. You seem wanting to ignore or dismiss or somehow undermine what those words explain and in so doing you are "running from" the simple truth regarding what atheists tend to think and why. Also seems to further demonstrate that you are not the atheist you think you are...
It's not anti-anything. It isn't about a sense of well being. It isn't a religion either. If you were an atheist you would better understand this, but you go ahead and continue this game of playing both sides to the middle rather than simply accept the truth of these matters.
Why? I really don't know...
Ah ... I am not an atheist now ... I wonder what learnme I am dealing with today. That fact that you say I am not an atheist, I guess you mean true atheist. Kind of shuts the deal on my statement that you are more interested in fighting religion than I am. I just don'tt care past separation of church and state.
You say ... "playing both sides to the middle". yeah, list what people are saying and think about it. Yup, I do that. I am gulty.
so now we have from you
cement theory, ten commandments, and now the atheist creed. Hmmm ... starting to look religious. Answering to your statement of belief about god. Set rules of the game to answer to them. And now reciting pledges to the statement of belief about god.
You recite your creed and tell yourself you feel better.
"If done properly" is the key here.
Just because secularists choose not to follow religion or have belief in anything spiritual does not automatically give them the edge on critical thinking.
(Snip)
An "edge", perhaps not. More like a near-monopoly!!
"If done properly" is the key here.
Just because secularists choose not to follow religion or have belief in anything spiritual does not automatically give them the edge on critical thinking.
Atheists run the gamut, I get that.
Never said anything about church or religion per se, certainly not laws based on them.
I'm not anti-secular in the sense that people shouldn't be allowed to their own beliefs, just pointing out that there are many in the secular crowd that are just as rigid and dogmatic as any religion. Seems to be becoming more prevalent, in fact.
To clarify my previous post, secular thinking isn't closed off in and of itself, but human nature often leads it there just like it can with religion.
Also, critical thinking leads some into spirituality. Shouldn't assume they aren't "doing it right", "not getting it", or "reverting to their upbringing"... the typical backlash anyway.
Back to the original thought of this thread: of course one guy's opinion on one bit piece of religious text isn't going to prove or disprove the reality of any god.
People should avoid triumphalism.
yes. I would say done without an agenda instead of done right.
Revenge just is not good enough for me. We all get burnt. We need to be mature about it and understand our selves and family's role in it.
Agenda's base on revenge from a perceived abuse ...
are not trust worthy passions,
they are an infection.
They blind the mind,
poison the soul.
Last edited by Arach Angle; 07-10-2021 at 06:42 PM..
Ah ... I am not an atheist now ... I wonder what learnme I am dealing with today. That fact that you say I am not an atheist, I guess you mean true atheist. Kind of shuts the deal on my statement that you are more interested in fighting religion than I am. I just don'tt care past separation of church and state.
You say ... "playing both sides to the middle". yeah, list what people are saying and think about it. Yup, I do that. I am gulty.
so now we have from you
cement theory, ten commandments, and now the atheist creed. Hmmm ... starting to look religious. Answering to your statement of belief about god. Set rules of the game to answer to them. And now reciting pledges to the statement of belief about god.
You recite your creed and tell yourself you feel better.
Forgive me if I bow out from playing your games as well. Not sure what you are other than just interested in stirring your pot of who knows what, but all I'm beginning to see is some sort of issue, perhaps born of ego, that I have posted my Cement Theory, my Ten Truths and the Atheist Creed (that someone else posted before I did). That looks religious to you? And you claim to be an atheist?
I rarely can understand your comments that tend to be all over the place, mostly defending the rationale for religious beliefs while claiming to be an atheist. Also very repetitive with your constant and futile request we all compare this and that. See how everything is alive. Snicker, snicker about any arguments that you just want to throw under the "anti-religion" bus.
If I can set the rules of the game (still more of the ridiculous from you), I would try to curb this sort of nonsense, and get us back to the TOPIC OF THE THREAD, but I know better! I'd rather just not play this game of yours anymore. Since you enjoy popping into the exchange between others, I'm sure you'll find some other victim to wear on. No doubt you will jump on more of my comments addressed to others too, but fortunately, none of us have to play your games if we don't want to.
Forgive me if I bow out from playing your games as well. Not sure what you are other than just interested in stirring your pot of who knows what, but all I'm beginning to see is some sort of issue, perhaps born of ego, that I have posted my Cement Theory, my Ten Truths and the Atheist Creed (that someone else posted before I did). That looks religious to you? And you claim to be an atheist?
I rarely can understand your comments that tend to be all over the place, mostly defending the rationale for religious beliefs while claiming to be an atheist. Also very repetitive with your constant and futile request we all compare this and that. See how everything is alive. Snicker, snicker about any arguments that you just want to throw under the "anti-religion" bus.
If I can set the rules of the game (still more of the ridiculous from you), I would try to curb this sort of nonsense, and get us back to the TOPIC OF THE THREAD, but I know better! I'd rather just not play this game of yours anymore. Since you enjoy popping into the exchange between others, I'm sure you'll find some other victim to wear on. No doubt you will jump on more of my comments addressed to others too, but fortunately, none of us have to play your games if we don't want to.
Thanks. Yes. I feel better now.
There's an old saying that one is judged by the company they keep. When a self-proclaimed atheist sides with the religionists most of the time...that means something.
Welcome to the victim club.
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