Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This clearly does not point to Jesus you are right.
So what are the OT passages that speak to the coming Messiah ?
You might take look at the specific passages that are strictly forbidden to be spoken out loud in the Jewish Houses of worship to this day if you really want to know ?
Easy enough to find out, google it .
Do you really think that you know better than the learned Jewish Rabbis & scholars which passages must be stricken from the Torah, and for what offensive implication they give?
Hi!
I'm a Jewish rabbi and, to some degree I guess, a scholar. Can you tell me what my ilk and I have deemed "stricken" or forbidden to speak out loud in synagogue or anywhere else? Because based on my lifetime of learning, my ordination and experience, none of that exists.
I'm a Jewish rabbi and, to some degree I guess, a scholar. Can you tell me what my ilk and I have deemed "stricken" or forbidden to speak out loud in synagogue or anywhere else? Because based on my lifetime of learning, my ordination and experience, none of that exists.
I'm a Jewish rabbi and, to some degree I guess, a scholar. Can you tell me what my ilk and I have deemed "stricken" or forbidden to speak out loud in synagogue or anywhere else? Because based on my lifetime of learning, my ordination and experience, none of that exists.
Thanks bunches,
Dan
The verses to which he is referring are in Parashat Beha’alotcha, which I believe will be read in synagogues on June 10th.
You can hopefully confirm for me that "WHAT ARE THESE WOUNDS IN THINE HANDS" is fairly obvious mistranslation, more accurately meaning "between my hands" most likely indicating on the body. The person is question is being punished for being a FALSE prophet and "friends" being judges who sentenced the false prophet to Makkot (lashes.)
“On that day every prophet will be ashamed of their prophetic vision. They will not put on a prophet’s garment of hair in order to deceive. 5 Each will say, ‘I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth.[a]’ 6 If someone asks, ‘What are these wounds on your body[b]?’ they will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.’
So, if this is forecasting Jesus, it's forecasting him as false prophet who will repent before judgement day.
The verses to which he is referring are in Parashat Beha’alotcha, which I believe will be read in synagogues on June 10th.
You can hopefully confirm for me that "WHAT ARE THESE WOUNDS IN THINE HANDS" is fairly obvious mistranslation, more accurately meaning "between my hands" most likely indicating on the body. The person is question is being punished for being a FALSE prophet and "friends" being judges who sentenced the false prophet to Makkot (lashes.)
“On that day every prophet will be ashamed of their prophetic vision. They will not put on a prophet’s garment of hair in order to deceive. 5 Each will say, ‘I am not a prophet. I am a farmer; the land has been my livelihood since my youth.[a]’ 6 If someone asks, ‘What are these wounds on your body[b]?’ they will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.’
So, if this is forecasting Jesus, it's forecasting him as false prophet who will repent before judgement day.
I'm assuming that that piece is lifted from Zecharia 13:6 which reads
וְאָמַ֣ר אֵלָ֔יו מָ֧ה הַמַּכּ֛וֹת הָאֵ֖לֶּה בֵּ֣ין יָדֶ֑יךָ וְאָמַ֕ר אֲשֶׁ֥ר הֻכֵּ֖יתִי בֵּ֥ית מְאַהֲבָֽי
and he (the one who should not have prophesied in the future -- 13:3
"If anyone “prophesies” thereafter, his own father and mother, who brought him into the world, will say to him, “You shall die, for you have lied in the name of the LORD”; and his own father and mother, who brought him into the world, will put him to death when he “prophesies.”)
will be ashamed that he claimed to prophecy (13:4); he "will be ashamed of the “visions” [he had] when he “prophesied.”
and he will admit "and he will declare, “I am not a ‘prophet’;"
So all of this will be what happens if, after the battle of Gog and Magog (see the Malbim on 13:1), someone prophesizes. I'm not sure how this can refer back to Jesus.
But regardless, in verse 6, the same admittedly false prophet is asked to explain his appearance.
And if he is asked, “What are those sores between your arms?" he will say "“From being beaten in the homes of my friends.”
I'm still not sure why anyone would think that we don't read some of the Torah if it is part of the reading assigned to be read publicly on (this year) June 10th.
There are something in the range of 70 different haftarot but a large percentage of the entire corpus of the Neviim is not in any haftarah IIRC.
One of the Big Lies Christianity propounds is that Jesus was predicted in the Old Testament.
Jesus WASN'T predicted in the Old Testament.
Your denial and insults are no defense for your beliefs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Christian apologists take vague and obscure scriptures out of context relevant to the period of Jewish history in which they were written and try to twist and contort them into predictions about Jesus, and it simply cannot be done--to satisfy any clear-headed rational-thinking adult, that is. Any Christian who cracked a Bible to actually study these vague and confusing passages would see that they are referring to people and places and times completely unrelated to Jesus.
The whole Bible is about Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
A perfect example of the deceit the gospel writer, Matthew employed to trick readers into believing Jesus was predicted in the OT can be found in Matthew 2:14-15 where Joseph takes Mary and the baby Jesus to Egypt to escape Herod's wrath.
Now this whole story of running to Egypt is pure baloney--invented by Matthew (it doesn't appear in Mark) to get an nebulous line from Hosea worked into his gospel story and to try to convince readers that the OT predicted Jesus:
"So he [Joseph] got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet [Hosea]: “Out of Egypt I called my son.” Matthew 2:14-15
But a cursory look at the complete "prophecy" shows that Hosea wasn't referring to Jesus at all nor does the line even hint at a future Messiah:
Not only was Jesus prophesied about directly, there are many scriptures that speak about things that are types of Jesus.
For instance, the Passover, the Rock, the bronze snake in the desert, the crossing of the Jordan, the sacrifice of the lambs for sin, the earthly temple, the circumcision, the special diet, and the external washings, etc, all about Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Every single passage that Christians claim refers to Jesus can be easily refuted and shown to be referring to something completely apart from Jesus. In subsequent posts I will show clearly how the most infamous "Jesus" prophecies are not about Jesus at all.
And thus was fulfilled the task of showing Jesus is NOT in the Old Testament.
There is no one but Jesus who fulfills all the scriptures.
I'm listening to some YouTube videos of apologists preaching "See this 'He' in the verse? This is referring to Jesus."
I mean I am just flabbergasted that these guys willy-nilly say, "This is Jesus."
Isaiah 2:4
"And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people"
Jesus!
Jeremiah 33:15
"In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David's line; he will do what is just and right in the land."
Jesus!
Wherever the word "He" appears in the Old Testament it's Jesus!
This is just pure unadulterated dishonesty and deceit. It's shocking the level that Christians stoop to try to convince people Jesus is real.
Let's look at Revelation 12:8
7 "Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But HE was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven."
"He" is also about Jesus, right?
You really don't know what "He" is about in that scripture?
Doesn't sound like you are serious about discussing at all.
Eddie, your post raises an excellent question--a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" question:
Is it possible--is it remotely possible that rather than the prophecies being about Jesus, instead what happened was the "prophecies" were about someone else and the gospel writers lifted them and assigned Jesus to their fulfillment?
For example, look at the most famous text attributed to Jesus: Isaiah 53.
"Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
How do we know all this isn't about Cyrus the Persian. Cyrus was an "arm of the Lord". He freed the Jews from Babylonian captivity to allow them to return to Judea to rebuild the Temple. God refers to Cyrus as "My servant".
So if Cyrus is the subject of Isaiah 53 then everything is about Cyrus. This question is for Compwiz: COULD Isaiah 53 be about Cyrus?
"He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him."
We have no reliefs or drawings or busts or anything of Jesus so how do we know what this Jesus really looked like. Maybe in real life he looked like Adonis. Who knows?
"He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed."
Here's where my chicken or egg question starts: how do we know that Matthew, the real perpetrator of all this prophecy nonsense didn't have Isaiah 53 in front of him when he was writing his gospel? How do we know he didn't just whole cloth lift these Isaiah passages about being stricken for our sins and write them into his text, "So they crucified Jesus. They whipped him and then crushed him." etc etc?
So over the centuries we constantly hear "Jesus was despised and rejected. He was stricken. He was crushed. He was pierced for our sins, that's why he is our redeemer--because he suffered and died for our sins. bla bla. People hear this meaningless flowery poetry thousands and thousands of times over and over and soon they begin believing it. They automatically assign a particular personality to the language. That's what happens when we read this stuff--we automatically think "Jesus" because it's been pounded into our consciousness for decades that Isaiah 53 is all about Jesus.
How about
"He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth."
So Matthew reads this passage and then thinks, "Hmmmmm....that's good stuff." So Matthew writes into his text, "When Pilate questioned Jesus and asked "Are you the Messiah" Jesus remained silent. Then Pilate condemned him to death and Jesus was led led like a lamb to the slaughter...er, to be crucified."
This is pure church propaganda of the highest order--a propaganda ploy worthy of Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's chief propagandist who wrote all the propaganda for the Nazi war machine and whose job it was to make Hitler look benevolent and a savior of the German people when of course in reality Hitler was a monster. Christianity's supreme propaganda triumph was to take a mythical man god who was based on a nobody Jewish anti-Roman zealot and turn this zealot into Jesus the Christ, the son of God who died for our sins...you know the rest of the spiel.
Make sense?
There are scriptures that are prophesies of Jesus, but also speak of a man of God, yet that man of God was not perfect and failed. Jesus is the perfect one and fulfilled the prophets and the scriptures.
1 Chronicles 17:11-14 When your days are over and you go to be with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, one of your own sons, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will build a house for me, and I will establish his throne forever. I will be his father, and he will be my son. I will never take my love away from him, as I took it away from your predecessor. I will set him over my house and my kingdom forever; his throne will be established forever.
That prophecy is a double prophecy. It is first fulfilled in Solomon who built the temple, but then sinned and his kingdom was broke apart a few years after his death. This prophecy looks forward to a “Son of David” who would come, who would have a kingdom without end. Jesus who was without sin is the one who fulfills this prophecy and all the others to completion.
Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
You would admit then that Micah has nothing to do with Jesus?
The quote below pretty much confirms your statement, Mike
Jesus is in the scriptures of Micah.
About Jesus---
Micah 4:2 Many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
(Ephrath or Ephrathah or Ephratah (Hebrew: אֶפְרָת \ אֶפְרָתָה) is a biblically referenced former name of Bethlehem,[1] meaning "fruitful". See Wikipedia.)
In Micah 5:2 God eliminated all the cities of the world and selected Bethlehem, with a population of less than a thousand, as the Messiah's birthplace.
In the New Testament when the wise men seek the birth of the Lord, Matthew 2:2 saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.” Herod asks where the Christ would be born. In 5 They responded to Herod by saying”, In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written by the prophet” and they quote Micah.
Without that scripture in Micah they would not have known that.
Micah 5:1-3“Now muster yourselves in troops, daughter of troops; they have laid siege against us; with a rod they will smite the judge of Israel on the cheek. 2 “But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity.” 3 Therefore, He will give them up until the time when she who is in labor has borne a child.
This is prophecy of the Messiah, it is stated in scripture 3 about a female giving birth to a child. This “child” is described as having existed from eternity a characteristic exclusive to God.
See Matthew 2:6 where Micah 5:2 is quoted. The statement that this child was born King of the Jews agrees that the Son is Eternal (see also Isaiah 9:6; John 17:24; Hebrews 7:3).
Micah 7:20 You will be faithful to Jacob, and show love to Abraham, as you pledged on oath to our ancestors in days long ago.
The promise was to bring the Savior into the world that would come from Abraham's own seed.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
