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It would be better if we compared Virginia to other subtropical places rather than a very mild and tropical-leaning oceanic. If we base that on the vegetation that can grow than Auckland is more subtropical than Gainesville, FL which isnot even remotely true, not on latitude, not on average, that is pure nonsense. Or saying Isles of Scilly sre more subtropical than New Orleans just because hardiness zone is slightly higher. No, accept that oceanic climates can get those hardiness zones, and if even the nearly continental Cape Cod, which is only oceanic under the -3°C isotherm has subtropical vegetation and a humid-subtropical native of Ilex opaca as native, what about a very mild oceanic like Auckland, about vegetation we should already think tropical! The oy difference between what oceanic is defined and humid-subtropical like I always said, is the summer 22°C isotherm diving them, after all they share same winter definitions. That helps many subtropical plants to grow, since they are just different in the summer being cooler, that’s all.
Auckland has flora that hasn't evolved dormancy. The scilly isles just has standard european/british biome that isn't frost tender. Don't confuse the two.
Consider that the cidps in the scilly isles have never fruited in 130 years, while the same species where I am will fruit before the tree has even formed a trunk, even though winter minimums here are 5-6C colder than the scillies.
Last edited by sandshark; 03-09-2024 at 08:39 PM..
Not confusing them, but I am saying NZ should not be called subtropical really, dormancy can’t be the factor, because here where I am is only 1 degrees of coldest month of being tropical climate and many trees get dormancy and vegetation is different, but NZ is Oceanic after all, it is quite mild and except Norfolk Island it is not subtropical but oceanic, a climate similar to subtropical but lacks in summers to be of it.
Each continent would have its own biome native species and more, but NZ is Oceanic just a milder and with more ability to grow tropical vegetation type.
Not confusing them, but I am saying NZ should not be called subtropical really, dormancy can’t be the factor, because here where I am is only 1 degrees of coldest month of being tropical climate and many trees get dormancy and vegetation is different, but NZ is Oceanic after all, it is quite mild and except Norfolk Island it is not subtropical but oceanic, a climate similar to subtropical but lacks in summers to be of it.
Subtropical should describe ecology, not climate. There is no term to describe environments that have no dormancy, but I would suggest subtropical is a good one.
It doesn't have to be all or nothing either. There is nothing contradictory about your area having some species that require dormancy while other don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subtropical-is-temperate3
Each continent would have its own biome native species and more, but NZ is Oceanic just a milder and with more ability to grow tropical vegetation type.
No such thing as oceanic biome. the biome where I am, isn't remotely similar to that of Scotland or vancouver island
So is Virginia subtropical or subcontinental? I say let the citrus decide.
Which makes no sense. Every climatologist and ecologist would scoff at you for suggesting a singular plant species, native to one region of the globe, be used to demarcate global climate zones.
A single introduced plant does not decide a climate zone. The collective, naturally occurring, native environment indicates climate zones - this is why Holdridge defines all of Virginia as warm temperate moist forest. People have time and time again explained the bigger picture of Virginia's ecosystem to you - gone through all of the plants that start appearing around Virginia, the fauna relevant to the subtropical zone that exists in Virginia, terrestrially and in the ocean, we've pointed out the warm temperate agriculture centered in Virginia, pointed out the tropical easterlies and weather systems that effect Virginia's climate, emphasized averages, and even discussed warm temperate and subtropical foreign plants that can and do grow there - and you just kind of go off on ridiculous tangents, cherry-picking plants from around the world and declaring VA "not subtropical" if it can't grow there (or allegedly "doesn't grow well" there). You always do this.
Not confusing them, but I am saying NZ should not be called subtropical really, dormancy can’t be the factor, because here where I am is only 1 degrees of coldest month of being tropical climate and many trees get dormancy and vegetation is different, but NZ is Oceanic after all, it is quite mild and except Norfolk Island it is not subtropical but oceanic, a climate similar to subtropical but lacks in summers to be of it.
The presence of a dormant season doesn't invalidate a climate from being "SUBtropical". Dormancy indicates a climate's tendency towards continental vs maritime influence, its position towards the northern or southern boundary of the subtropical zone, or simply the presence of sandy soils, but doesn't negate a subtropical classification. The presence of cold-temperate species is also irrelevant, unless these species comprise well more than 50% of the region's environment.
The subtropical climate encompasses the "warm temperate" and "subtropical" holdridge zones. This naturally entails, especially on a large landmass, like the North American continent or Asia, a transition to warmer ecology, with cold temperate vegetation intermingling with gradually more warm temperate, subtropical, and eventually tropical species. With human interference, cultivars of cold temperate species have been brought much further south and nativized (and vice-versa).
Length of the growing season, or dormancy period, is important. The subtropical climate is, on average, drawn to at least as far north as Kansas, the Ohio river valley area, the DMV region, and southern/coastal New England, and this perfectly aligns with the range of evergreen "bluegrass" - a native and more crucial indicator species as to where the warm temperate crossover exists in North America, ecologically, much more than "citrus".
If you're just going to dismiss and ignore tons of native ecological traits to denigrate a region's climate because it can't as effectively grow some foreign plant, you're just being deliberately difficult and obtuse. Ed is Canadian, so as I've said, I think it comes from a lack of interest or investment in the natural environment in a region he isn't really familiar with, in a country he has enough bias against to resent the fact that it has climates (warmer, more desirable ones) and plants that his country doesn't - he'd rather ignore that.
Columbus Ohio is around Cfa and Dfa boundary, and Cleveland because of lake Erie doesn’t fit Dfa but a rare Cfa somehow! I don’t know what to say, but I think the middle zone of subtropical should be the area to look for. Something between Florida and Ohio.
Which makes no sense. Every climatologist and ecologist would scoff at you for suggesting a singular plant species, native to one region of the globe, be used to demarcate global climate zones.
A single introduced plant does not decide a climate zone. The collective, naturally occurring, native environment indicates climate zones - this is why Holdridge defines all of Virginia as warm temperate moist forest. People have time and time again explained the bigger picture of Virginia's ecosystem to you - gone through all of the plants that start appearing around Virginia, the fauna relevant to the subtropical zone that exists in Virginia, terrestrially and in the ocean, we've pointed out the warm temperate agriculture centered in Virginia, pointed out the tropical easterlies and weather systems that effect Virginia's climate, emphasized averages, and even discussed warm temperate and subtropical foreign plants that can and do grow there - and you just kind of go off on ridiculous tangents, cherry-picking plants from around the world and declaring VA "not subtropical" if it can't grow there (or allegedly "doesn't grow well" there). You always do this.
Thousands of introduced species do indicate a level of ecology though, and that will provide far more understanding of the ecology, than a broad climate classification that doesn't even describe similar day to day weather.
Which makes no sense. Every climatologist and ecologist would scoff at you for suggesting a singular plant species, native to one region of the globe, be used to demarcate global climate zones.
A single introduced plant does not decide a climate zone. The collective, naturally occurring, native environment indicates climate zones - this is why Holdridge defines all of Virginia as warm temperate moist forest. People have time and time again explained the bigger picture of Virginia's ecosystem to you - gone through all of the plants that start appearing around Virginia, the fauna relevant to the subtropical zone that exists in Virginia, terrestrially and in the ocean, we've pointed out the warm temperate agriculture centered in Virginia, pointed out the tropical easterlies and weather systems that effect Virginia's climate, emphasized averages, and even discussed warm temperate and subtropical foreign plants that can and do grow there - and you just kind of go off on ridiculous tangents, cherry-picking plants from around the world and declaring VA "not subtropical" if it can't grow there (or allegedly "doesn't grow well" there). You always do this.
I was joking about the citrus.
OTOH, completely serious about splitting up Cfa somehow.
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