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The presence of a dormant season doesn't invalidate a climate from being "SUBtropical". Dormancy indicates a climate's tendency towards continental vs maritime influence, its position towards the northern or southern boundary of the subtropical zone, or simply the presence of sandy soils, but doesn't negate a subtropical classification. The presence of cold-temperate species is also irrelevant, unless these species comprise well more than 50% of the region's environment.
The subtropical climate encompasses the "warm temperate" and "subtropical" holdridge zones. This naturally entails, especially on a large landmass, like the North American continent or Asia, a transition to warmer ecology, with cold temperate vegetation intermingling with gradually more warm temperate, subtropical, and eventually tropical species. With human interference, cultivars of cold temperate species have been brought much further south and nativized (and vice-versa).
Length of the growing season, or dormancy period, is important. The subtropical climate is, on average, drawn to at least as far north as Kansas, the Ohio river valley area, the DMV region, and southern/coastal New England, and this perfectly aligns with the range of evergreen "bluegrass" - a native and more crucial indicator species as to where the warm temperate crossover exists in North America, ecologically, much more than "citrus".
If you're just going to dismiss and ignore tons of native ecological traits to denigrate a region's climate because it can't as effectively grow some foreign plant, you're just being deliberately difficult and obtuse. Ed is Canadian, so as I've said, I think it comes from a lack of interest or investment in the natural environment in a region he isn't really familiar with, in a country he has enough bias against to resent the fact that it has climates (warmer, more desirable ones) and plants that his country doesn't - he'd rather ignore that.
Where he lives infact is the most desirable in his country, Victoria the warmest in Canada. Though the Amherstburg, Ontario under the -3°C isotherm fits Cfa, that is good, with hardiness zone 7a it is not bad! Also the native plants are a bit different in Southern Ontario, I found 2 Cfa candidate cities, Amherstburg and Niagara-on-the-lake. 7a is already a good for many subtropical species. Sabal minor, Windmill palms, and needle palms, these are perfect, and planting many of these 3 already helps to create a beautiful garden. Did you know what happened to someone in Kentucky? He planted Sabal minors and they started to spread and keep growing all over his yard, by itself with our his help. He only helped the first one. So he had to deal with them like people would in yards of Florida and Southern Georgia! Kentucky’s hardiness zone in Central Kentucky is 6b some places can get 7a, but Amherstburg Already 7a, more hopes on that! Cleveland is also around 7a, Toledo is 6b, and inland Ohio after Columbus 6b even Cinnicinati(but some areas could be 7a thanks to the UHI), so Cleveland is already having Windmill palms being grown well! Also I heard they are doing that on Youngstown, but Youngstown is 6b, some sites say it’s even 6a! Well Windmill is hardy to 7b most say, but I think 7a would be this case, but for Youngstown(6b who knows if 6a) let’s leave Sabal minor hardy to zone 6, and needles down to 5. Pittsburgh grows Sabal minor very well too since it’s already 6b, no protection anymore. Pittsburgh is only 0.9°F inside Cfa under the -3°C isotherm, so it is very continental part, Youngstown is Dfa by only 0.1°F average coldest month, it nearly borders Dfb too, but that 0.1°F makes Cfa and Cfb bordering the area too! Youngstowm is literally 4 climates at the same time, same can be said for Niagara-On-The-Lake, which it now got a Cfa under the -3°C isotherm is a borderline of the 4 due to summers and winters both being transitions of C and D and a and b with the f.
OTOH, completely serious about splitting up Cfa somehow.
I got your back:
Here I go with an example(Cfa humid-subtropical is being used):
Humid-subtropical under Köppen is, C temperate(average coldest month -3°C-18°C/26.6-64.4°F, at least 1 month averaging 10°C/50°F or above, f humid(wet year round, or no pronounced dry season, or simply when it is not s or w, a’ hot summer(at least one month averaging 22°C/71.6°For above.
People mostly complain on colder edge, not accepting cities like NYC, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh
, Boston, Columbus, etc., so I made 26.6-45.5°F(-3°C-7.5°C) average coldest month to be pre-continental side of temperate climate, and 45.5-64.4°F(7.5-18°C) pre-tropical. So example Orlando is pre-tropical humid-subtropical, NYC pre-continental humid-subtropical.
I even made it more detailed(but remember after all it is just a single climate being break down to deeper meaning.
26.6-32°F(-3°C-0°C)average coldest month, it is part of the pre-continental, but a more blurred borderline to real continental.Example city in Cfa categor, Pittsburgh average 27.5°F coldest month. This is to give importance to both isotherms as well! Embracing both the -3°C and the 0°C isotherm.
32-36.05°F(0-2.25°C) average coldest month(26.6-36.05°F/ -3-2.25°C is the true pre-continental) is a pre-continental climate without borderline issues but influence from the continent climates are obvious. Example of city Philadelphia average 33.7°F(0.94°C) coldest month.
36.05-45.5°F(2.25-7.5°C)coldest month average, is the pre-continental climate that feels pure in its temperate nature but leaning more towards continental that tropical. Example city Cfa city Nashville.
36.05-54.95°F(2.25-12.75°C) average coldest month is the temperate climate, in this case the humid-subtropical climate without borderline issue, in other words pure one. It is the balanced area between continental boundary and tropical boundary, it takes half the way of each of the pre-continental and pre-tropical types.Example cities: Nashville, Atlanta, DC,Birmingham, Tallahassee, Jacksonville and more.
45.5-64.4°F(7.5-18°C)pre-tropical(54.95°F-64.4°F/12.75-18°C is the most outstanding pre-continental)
45.5-54.95°F(7.5-12.75°C) is the pre-tropical start line, tropical characteristics start to be pronounced, but only in a smaller level. Example Cfa city, Mobile, AL.
Average coldest month 54.95-59°F(12.75-15°C) is the pre-tropical that is in around middle line, many times even mistaken or thought by some to be tropical already. Example city, Ocala, FL.
59-64.4°F(15-18°C) average coldest month is where the line of tropical and temperate becomes blurred, this climate is so similar to tropical that it is very often though to be. Areas with this subtype can grow many tropical fruit and vegetation but are not yet tropical. Orlando, Tampa, and many Floridian cities, some southern Texas cities fit this description.
Average 64.4°F(18°C) average coldest month or more, finally tropical! 26.6°F(-3°C) average coldest month or below, continental it is.
Last edited by Subtropical-is-temperate3; 03-10-2024 at 04:53 PM..
This could be applied to all temperate (C) climates, except Cfc, Cwc, and Csc that obly can have 1-3 months average of 50°F(10°C) of above. So I know it would barely pass the 7.5°C(45.5°F) to be pre-tropical part. There would be some places like in highlands of tropics that would break that and be pre-tropical version of these, but even in tropics many wouldn’t be because if only less than 4 months, practically only up to 3 can average 50°F(10°C) or above, the coldest had to be below 10°C in average so it easily would be 7.5°C or less(not always but easily and often).
Last edited by Subtropical-is-temperate3; 03-10-2024 at 04:56 PM..
Thousands of introduced species do indicate a level of ecology though, and that will provide far more understanding of the ecology, than a broad climate classification that doesn't even describe similar day to day weather.
No, the complete picture of the native ecology of a region informs us of where the dividing lines are between colder and warmer climates. There is no situation in which "thousands" of major subtropical species all grow to their climax in New Zealand but nowhere in Virginia.
Here I go with an example(Cfa humid-subtropical is being used):
Humid-subtropical under Köppen is, C temperate(average coldest month -3°C-18°C/26.6-64.4°F, at least 1 month averaging 10°C/50°F or above, f humid(wet year round, or no pronounced dry season, or simply when it is not s or w, a’ hot summer(at least one month averaging 22°C/71.6°For above.
People mostly complain on colder edge, not accepting cities like NYC, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh
, Boston, Columbus, etc., so I made 26.6-45.5°F(-3°C-7.5°C) average coldest month to be pre-continental side of temperate climate, and 45.5-64.4°F(7.5-18°C) pre-tropical. So example Orlando is pre-tropical humid-subtropical, NYC pre-continental humid-subtropical.
I even made it more detailed(but remember after all it is just a single climate being break down to deeper meaning.
26.6-32°F(-3°C-0°C)average coldest month, it is part of the pre-continental, but a more blurred borderline to real continental.Example city in Cfa categor, Pittsburgh average 27.5°F coldest month. This is to give importance to both isotherms as well! Embracing both the -3°C and the 0°C isotherm.
32-36.05°F(0-2.25°C) average coldest month(26.6-36.05°F/ -3-2.25°C is the true pre-continental) is a pre-continental climate without borderline issues but influence from the continent climates are obvious. Example of city Philadelphia average 33.7°F(0.94°C) coldest month.
36.05-45.5°F(2.25-7.5°C)coldest month average, is the pre-continental climate that feels pure in its temperate nature but leaning more towards continental that tropical. Example city Cfa city Nashville.
36.05-54.95°F(2.25-12.75°C) average coldest month is the temperate climate, in this case the humid-subtropical climate without borderline issue, in other words pure one. It is the balanced area between continental boundary and tropical boundary, it takes half the way of each of the pre-continental and pre-tropical types.Example cities: Nashville, Atlanta, DC,Birmingham, Tallahassee, Jacksonville and more.
45.5-64.4°F(7.5-18°C)pre-tropical(54.95°F-64.4°F/12.75-18°C is the most outstanding pre-continental)
45.5-54.95°F(7.5-12.75°C) is the pre-tropical start line, tropical characteristics start to be pronounced, but only in a smaller level. Example Cfa city, Mobile, AL.
Average coldest month 54.95-59°F(12.75-15°C) is the pre-tropical that is in around middle line, many times even mistaken or thought by some to be tropical already. Example city, Ocala, FL.
59-64.4°F(15-18°C) average coldest month is where the line of tropical and temperate becomes blurred, this climate is so similar to tropical that it is very often though to be. Areas with this subtype can grow many tropical fruit and vegetation but are not yet tropical. Orlando, Tampa, and many Floridian cities, some southern Texas cities fit this description.
Average 64.4°F(18°C) average coldest month or more, finally tropical! 26.6°F(-3°C) average coldest month or below, continental it is.
Complicated.
Dividing Cfa into two would solve 90% of problems and stop 95% of arguments. Dividing it further provides little extra value.
Dividing Cfa into two would solve 90% of problems and stop 95% of arguments. Dividing it further provides little extra value.
-3-7.5°C pre-continental, 7.5°C-18°C pre-tropical, done. I just gave you the whole piece, but it was actually the simple. Yep extra value is for the extra. But the 2.25-12.75°C is the pure temperate winter, so if a place has this and hot summers it is a pure subtropical, but the 7.5°C mark is crazy because I can show you a place with this average in coldest month and it takes all the characteristics to be perfect humid subtropical!!!
Auburn, AL is crazy!: Auburn, the typical latitude for a Cfa(humid-subtropical) climate usually around 25-40°N/S(there is various exceptions), 32.5°N/S would be middle of it, Auburn is 32.6°N! With hardiness zone 8, it is good enough for many cold-hardy palms, Sabal Palmetto can be grown well! Also at hardiness zone 8 is also where many citrus can start to be grown! With an average of 45.5°F(7.5°C) coldest month, exactly middle of -3°C(26.6°F) to border continental and 18°C(64.4°F) to border tropical, Auburn makes it to the perfect middle of temperate (C) average, and with its hot humid summers with average of 81°F warmest month it is a perfect example of a humid-subtropical climate of North America, crazy how exact it is!
Infact Dwarf Palmetto starts to be native near the area, and the hardiness zone 8 has proven to grow citrus there well. Mandarins have done it perfectly, and the hot humid summers, and the latitude bro, perfect.
Thousands of introduced species do indicate a level of ecology though, and that will provide far more understanding of the ecology, than a broad climate classification that doesn't even describe similar day to day weather.
Day to day weather? That is meteorology! Weather and climate can be related but are not the same thing. Climate systems are of climate, climatology. And the ecology of a place is a good indicator of climate, and Köppen’s system is not far from describing that. It is impossible to make a climate classification based on day to day weather because though weather is predictable to certain point it is unpredictable.
Where he lives infact is the most desirable in his country, Victoria the warmest in Canada. Though the Amherstburg, Ontario under the -3°C isotherm fits Cfa, that is good, with hardiness zone 7a it is not bad! Also the native plants are a bit different in Southern Ontario, I found 2 Cfa candidate cities, Amherstburg and Niagara-on-the-lake. 7a is already a good for many subtropical species. Sabal minor, Windmill palms, and needle palms, these are perfect, and planting many of these 3 already helps to create a beautiful garden. Did you know what happened to someone in Kentucky? He planted Sabal minors and they started to spread and keep growing all over his yard, by itself with our his help. He only helped the first one. So he had to deal with them like people would in yards of Florida and Southern Georgia! Kentucky’s hardiness zone in Central Kentucky is 6b some places can get 7a, but Amherstburg Already 7a, more hopes on that! Cleveland is also around 7a, Toledo is 6b, and inland Ohio after Columbus 6b even Cinnicinati(but some areas could be 7a thanks to the UHI), so Cleveland is already having Windmill palms being grown well! Also I heard they are doing that on Youngstown, but Youngstown is 6b, some sites say it’s even 6a! Well Windmill is hardy to 7b most say, but I think 7a would be this case, but for Youngstown(6b who knows if 6a) let’s leave Sabal minor hardy to zone 6, and needles down to 5. Pittsburgh grows Sabal minor very well too since it’s already 6b, no protection anymore. Pittsburgh is only 0.9°F inside Cfa under the -3°C isotherm, so it is very continental part, Youngstown is Dfa by only 0.1°F average coldest month, it nearly borders Dfb too, but that 0.1°F makes Cfa and Cfb bordering the area too! Youngstowm is literally 4 climates at the same time, same can be said for Niagara-On-The-Lake, which it now got a Cfa under the -3°C isotherm is a borderline of the 4 due to summers and winters both being transitions of C and D and a and b with the f.
LOL, none of those palms are "perfect" for anywhere in Ontario. They will die quickly.
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, but it was actually the simple. Yep extra value is for the extra. But the 2.25-12.75°C is the pure temperate winter, so if a place has this and hot summers it is a pure subtropical, but the 7.5°C mark is crazy because I can show you a place with this average in coldest month and it takes all the characteristics to be perfect humid subtropical!!!