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While I disagree with atheism, I do want to keep my disagreements factual and not based on common misconceptions.
Thanks for the reminder, I see some areas I have slipped over and criticized misconception and not fact.
We all do that. we are human after all. I have had a few misconceptions about Islam corrected since you arrived on the scene! And I have had to revise a few ideas about theism, too. The important thing is to be willing to take the points on board. If that can be done rather than just run the tape loop from the beginning, then one can claim to be a reasonable human bean. No matter what the belief.
However to stay on topic as the large red stamp hovers above the page, I wondered where this idea came from that atheism claims to know there is no God (or god).
It might be a miss - take on atheist saying 'There is no God'. Well, that sounds pretty definite, but there was only ever one atheist I corresponded with who insisted that he meant that he knew there was no God. But after setting out the logical case he agreed that he meant that he was so sure about the God of the bible and by extension, all other personal gods that he could say with confidence that he was sure it wasn't there.
It is worth repeating to those (Nobel award scientists amongst other, I'm saddened to say) who say that saying 'There is no God' is making an illogical claim to 100% certainly they don't have - which is true enough - that people say there is no Sante Clause, fairies or Leprechauns when of course they cannot have %100 certainly; but no -one thinks them illogical for saying it.
The other reason might stem from this - that not being %100 (or near enough) able to disprove a god is taken by many many 'agnostics' (not even religious theists) that this being unable to disprove the possibility of any god, sortagod or something which might be called 'god' is enough (apparently) to justify believing in it is as a feasible, reasonable or probable belief - which actually, without good evidence, it isn't. To say that it is, is illogical.
Thus it could be that this lack of %100 proof (I have seen it said on the boards that we can't produce that sort of disproof) being the justification for a sort of God - belief, is used to discredit atheism as illogical because any other representation of atheist thought would of course stand up logically.
And of course, we can't have that.
ps. Woodroe writ
Quote:
"While I disagree with atheism, I do want to keep my disagreements factual"
Whereas, I, the undersigned, do hereby state and declare that I will, to the best of my ability, debate, discuss and disagree without rancor, bile or bitchness (ooowww) all disagreements, differences and doctrinal diversions,
(Signed M. Mouse)
I should like to hear what your disagreements with atheism are, because, if I am going to hear any sound objections, I reckon I could hear them from you.
Start a thread or PM?
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-06-2011 at 05:15 AM..
Reason: insert quotes
It is worth repeating to those (Nobel award scientists amongst other, I'm saddened to say) who say that saying 'There is no God' is making an illogical claim to 100% certainly they don't have - which is true enough - that people say there is no stant Clais, fairies or Leprechauns awhen of course they cannot have %100 certainly but no -one thinks them illogical for saying it.
And of course, we can't have that.
That is because religion is the only mass-accepted delusion.
If you believe that god talks to some guy with a fancy hat in Rome, you're religious.
it takes just as much blind faith to say there is absolutely no god as it does to claim there absolutely is one
It would if the proposition was 50:50 but it is not. When you simply make something up the chances of that something being true is not 50:50.... but is 1/N where N is the number of things everyone else has ever made up PLUS the number of things yet to be simply made up PLUS the number of things no one will ever make up.
N is quite large.
In other words Atheists are not all about going around saying there is no god. They are about going around saying there is literally no reason on offer to think there is one and so we should put that idea on the same shelf as all the other ideas there is no reason to think are true. Like Fairies, unicorns, Thor, Alien Abductions and more.
In other words Atheists are not all about going around saying there is no god. They are about going around saying there is literally no reason on offer to think there is one and so we should put that idea on the same shelf as all the other ideas there is no reason to think are true. Like Fairies, unicorns, Thor, Alien Abductions and more.
A. Like I stated earlier, the atheists (or self-proclaimed atheists) I have met will look you dead in the eye and say there is no god.
B. Jury's out on the alien abductions...though I think it makes more sense that they are time travelers from the future.
A. Like I stated earlier, the atheists (or self-proclaimed atheists) I have met will look you dead in the eye and say there is no god.
Anecdote. The plural of anecdote is not statistics. I have no way to confirm your claims or not. I can however say the atheists I meet do not. So my anecdote cancels out yours.
In fact mine might do even better than yours given I am a founding member of Atheist Ireland and I have many dealings with Atheist Alliance International and so the number of atheists I meet far outweighs the average joe.
However I would point out that it is still a valid thing to say on a probabilistic basis. Given the chance there is a god, and given the total lack of evidence for it, saying "there is no god" is at least safe.
Just like saying "Get on the bus, it is not going to crash" is not entirely a safe statement given the speaker does not know if the bus will crash or not, but it is still a valid thing to say given the chances it will.
In other words, saying "there is a no god" is simply short hand rather than a conclusive objective statement. People do not want to go around generally saying the much longer "the idea there is a god is one of many millions of ideas that people have come up with, are coming up with and will come up with in the future... it is an evidence devoid unsubstantiated idea which one can dismiss easily and proceed without....".
Its a mouthful. It is simply easier to say "there is no god" and if asked to elaborate then do so.
But as I say, most atheists I meet when asked if there is a god actually reply with "I see absolutely no reason to think so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4
B. Jury's out on the alien abductions...though I think it makes more sense that they are time travelers from the future.
The jury is out on all those things. That is my point. When there is no evidence FOR a claim, and there is no evidence AGAINST a claim because the claim is formulated in such a way as to be "unfalsifiable" then the jury will necessarily always be "out". Hence the reason most atheists position when you explore it is not about there being "no god" but about there being no reason on offer whatsoever to think there is one.
When every atheist I meet stops saying, "There is no god."
You may be right there!
Normally, as I say, it wouldn't matter any more than saying 'There is no Santa Claus' if Theist apologists did not immediately leap on them shouting 'How dye know Eh? Have you searched everywhere in the universe?'
Because of that we may have to choose our wording a bit more carefully, as we certainly can't expect theists to see our point of view.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-06-2011 at 05:18 AM..
That is because religion is the only mass-accepted delusion.
If you believe that god talks to some guy with a fancy hat in Rome, you're religious.
If you believe god talks to you, you're crazy.
In fact it is easy to believe as the illusion that there is a voice in the head with which one can have conversations can be very strong. I do it all the time, but I know I'm just arguing things out. What is illogical or irrational is when that possibility is dismissed out of hand through Faith that it is God speaking and no other explanation is possible.
I am not a christian (and as far as I'm concerned, christianity and islam can go take a flying leap), but I agree with the point that it takes just as much blind faith to say there is absolutely no god as it does to claim there absolutely is one.
Does it take just as much faith to say there's absolutely no Easter bunny as it does to claim there is one? Same question, just without all the cultural baggage associated with god(s).
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4
When every atheist I meet stops saying, "There is no god."
It's shorthand for "there's no evidence for and lots of evidence against gods being real, so the best tentative conclusion at the moment is that there aren't any. That may change as new information becomes available but right now I have to make the best decision I can based on the current situation". No one goes to these ridiculous lengths to hedge the concept for anything else, yet when people don't do it for god suddenly it becomes a huge leap of faith. That makes no sense - we're forced to make (tentative) conclusions about the existence and non-existence of things all the time, and yet no one's running around telling people they must have faith to think Santa is imaginary.
The only reason it's a issue for gods is because believers have manufactured a ton of special pleading for their particular mythology. That's great, but there's no reason for me to pretend their fairy tales have any more potential than any others.
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