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Old 10-07-2011, 06:56 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
I'm not a very nice theist. I believe each person will have to find the existence of God(swt) on their own. I will only say I believe He exists and if questioned, try to explain why. I really am not out to convince anybody. We all live by our own choices and it is the responsibility of all of us to explore all possibilities of all things.
Maybe your lack of niceness makes you able to talk to atheists on some sort of mental level. I would be rather interested to hear why though I think it probable that it would indeed seem totally without validity to me. I can only say that, if all muslims - if all theists- regarded atheists the way you do (though, as you say, you needed a few rethinks) we could probably co -exist a lot more easily.

Quote:
I have neither the ability, time nor desire to spoon feed the belief of God(swt) to anybody. If a person can not find God(swt) in their life on their own, there is nothing I can do or say to make them. If a person can not see evidence of God(swt) in a grain of sand, I doubt they would see it if he personally gave them a guided tour of the universe.
I rather think that I can see evidence of god (aka nature) in a grain of sand and indeed smaller than that, but not God (aka Him). Though if a clearly supernatural being rolled up just to share some falafel let alone give me a guided tour of the galaxy, I'd be obliged to accept his existence.

In fact, there's still a bottle of water on my desk waiting to be turned into wine through prayer. Has been for the last 7 years. If that happens, I'll Believe.
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Old 10-07-2011, 07:06 AM
 
39,023 posts, read 10,812,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
read your list, you are indeed religious, but it has a different name, its old name is mammon
the new name is materialism/consumerism, the mall is the temple.
your phylacteries are mastercard and visa. this religion does not discriminate and has great diversity. its favorite color was gold but the new color is green $$$.
Sorry wrong denomination.

Our religion is Science and our Dogma is Evilution. Our temples are the laboratory and our commandments are the rules of logic. Our Holy Relics are Dino fossils and our prophet is Hawk-Dawk who sayeth 'One day science will reveal all secrets'. Our priestly robes are the white coat and the badge of High Office is the clipboard and the celestial globe in the interview room.

You must be confusing us with those Devout Bible - believers with their manifold commercial enterprises.
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Old 10-07-2011, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Maybe your lack of niceness makes you able to talk to atheists on some sort of mental level. I would be rather interested to hear why though I think it probable that it would indeed seem totally without validity to me. I can only say that, if all muslims - if all theists- regarded atheists the way you do (though, as you say, you needed a few rethinks) we could probably co -exist a lot more easily.

I rather think that I can see evidence of god (aka nature) in a grain of sand and indeed smaller than that, but not God (aka Him). Though if a clearly supernatural being rolled up just to share some falafel let alone give me a guided tour of the galaxy, I'd be obliged to accept his existence.

In fact, there's still a bottle of water on my desk waiting to be turned into wine through prayer. Has been for the last 7 years. If that happens, I'll Believe.
Careful, coming to see the wonders of nature is getting close to being evidence of God(swt)

I really doubt actually seeing God(swt) face-to-face would convince many people. I suspect after the initial shock passed, the person would begin attributing human attributes to God(swt) and soon come to the conclusion, that he did not see anything beyond the physical world and was just fortunate enough to come in contact with a non-Human life form.

Even if you watched it turn to wine in front of your own eyes. You would soon find a way to explain it by physical causes. Every miracle can be explained by physical possibilities, including theories of how there are still undiscovered natural forces. Miracles are not convincing, unless a person has reason to believe God(swt) exists. I do not find that Miracles prove the existence of God(swt) rather I find the existence of God(swt) proves the Miracles.
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Old 10-07-2011, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Texas
43,534 posts, read 52,626,787 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
I do see your point. The thing is, imagine yourself living in a society where everyone believed in Father Christmas (all other things being equal) and all your arguments as to why it was daft to believe in Father Christmas were met with the sort of objections atheists get when they say it's daft to believe in God.
Um. I am not christian. Or jewish. Or muslim. And I live in America. I don't have to 'imagine' anything. I live it. Being surrounded by people who spout out stuff which to my ear sounds like a bunch of stupid, offensive, degrading hokey pokey all the time.

My ancestors were oppressed partially in the name of christianity. Currently, the religious right does more to damage our country than almost any other group. And I'm saying this as a republican.

I don't have to imagine anything.

However, I'm not going to go around telling people that they are 'daft' in their beliefs, because a. I would want the same respect for my beliefs and b. not everyone believes what you think they believe and c. I guess not very many people have been all up in my koolaid trying to convert me.
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Old 10-07-2011, 07:49 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
Um. I am not christian. Or jewish. Or muslim. And I live in America. I don't have to 'imagine' anything. I live it. Being surrounded by people who spout out stuff which to my ear sounds like a bunch of stupid, offensive, degrading hokey pokey all the time.

My ancestors were oppressed partially in the name of christianity. Currently, the religious right does more to damage our country than almost any other group. And I'm saying this as a republican.

I don't have to imagine anything.

However, I'm not going to go around telling people that they are 'daft' in their beliefs, because a. I would want the same respect for my beliefs and b. not everyone believes what you think they believe and c. I guess not very many people have been all up in my koolaid trying to convert me.
Most of us have ancestors that were persecuted by Christians. My ancestors, the Lipkas of Lithuania and Poland were eventually, killed. exiled or forced to convert begining with the Northern Crusades. How short Human memory is. Lithuania did not become a Christian nation until 1387, however the Lipkas held out until the 1800s.
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Old 10-07-2011, 08:51 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,278,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Not a cop out. Simple fact.
Says you. I am not so convinced. Maybe if you were the first I would bite. However I have spent 18+ years now with people essentially 1) Saying there is loads of evidence 2) Then going into a long diatribe about why they will not actually be giving any of it.

After the first couple of people you might believe them. After 18 years you learn to recognize a cover and run when you see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
The only thing I try to tell people is to always have an open mind, search all things and verify all answers.
Tried/trying that. Nothing doing.
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Old 10-07-2011, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Says you. I am not so convinced. Maybe if you were the first I would bite. However I have spent 18+ years now with people essentially 1) Saying there is loads of evidence 2) Then going into a long diatribe about why they will not actually be giving any of it.

After the first couple of people you might believe them. After 18 years you learn to recognize a cover and run when you see it.



Tried/trying that. Nothing doing.

No skin off my nose. I have no quota's requiring me to get anybody to believe in God(swt). That is up to each person. I never even ask my friends if they have any religious beliefs. that is up to each individual. If a person sees a reason to believe, they will, if they don't they won't. Nothing I do or say will ever change that.
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Old 10-07-2011, 09:53 AM
 
7,802 posts, read 5,278,109 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
No skin off my nose. I have no quota's requiring me to get anybody to believe in God(swt). That is up to each person. I never even ask my friends if they have any religious beliefs. that is up to each individual. If a person sees a reason to believe, they will, if they don't they won't. Nothing I do or say will ever change that.
I am the same. I do not go around trying to convert people to thinking there is no god. However this is a discussion forum, not real life, and as such there is some expectation to discuss... and substantiate ones claims.

Put yourself in my shoes for a moment. If you had literally 100s. And I mean it, it is that many, 100s.... of people making a claim over and over.... and saying there is lots of evidence for that claim over and over.... and then making excuses for not giving any of it over and over......

Tell me what you would start to think/feel. After 18 years of seeing people do backward somersaults to claim there is evidence but to explain why they will not tell you a shred of it.

In my position I think you are just bluffing. You say there is loads of evidence and then consistently refuse to adumbrate even a piece of it.... I can be forgiven for concluding you simply do not have what you say you have. At all.

If there is an option there to reach a different conclusion, I simply have not found it.
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Old 10-07-2011, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 13,272,269 times
Reputation: 7407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I am the same. I do not go around trying to convert people to thinking there is no god. However this is a discussion forum, not real life, and as such there is some expectation to discuss... and substantiate ones claims.

Put yourself in my shoes for a moment. If you had literally 100s. And I mean it, it is that many, 100s.... of people making a claim over and over.... and saying there is lots of evidence for that claim over and over.... and then making excuses for not giving any of it over and over......

Tell me what you would start to think/feel. After 18 years of seeing people do backward somersaults to claim there is evidence but to explain why they will not tell you a shred of it.

In my position I think you are just bluffing. You say there is loads of evidence and then consistently refuse to adumbrate even a piece of it.... I can be forgiven for concluding you simply do not have what you say you have. At all.

If there is an option there to reach a different conclusion, I simply have not found it.
All I can o\ffer is my long boring life story as to how I as raised Christian, later became agnostic and had personal experiences that convinced me God(swt) exists. Nothing you would have any interest in hearing about, as they are simply my own experiences.
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Old 10-08-2011, 02:57 AM
 
13,313 posts, read 25,546,272 times
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If I had grown up locked in a closet with no outside ideas, I would never have thought of a god or such. It's believers who brought up the idea, and it never made any sense to me. In fact, I was pretty well into adulthood before I realized that some people actually believe that stuff. I wouldn't say "there is no god" unless someone brought it up or asked me. You can't prove a negative; and "faith" is largely defined, it seems, by accepting something without empirical proof.
So when people say only agnostics have intellectual veracity, I say, not being sure about something that you think might or might not exist is one thing, and finding the whole concept/question utterly irrelevant is another. I don't consider the question to be valid.
I do see why faith and afterlife and stuff works emotionally for people, especially the part about seeing departed loved ones later on, thinking that maybe bad people get a bad result later on (that goes for karma beliefs, too) although the logic becomes twisted quite quickly, such as most criminals aren't atheists, people seem unwilling to contemplate the end of their own special little personality, therefore "afterlife," etc. I am a little alarmed by how much many believers feel that our human earthly lives are meaningless without this god belief, or more to the point, an afterlife belief. Are people only going to behave because they're afraid of a bad end/afterlife? If that's the only reason most people behave decently, them I'm afraid to leave the house.
And yes, people do horrible things, and there is no justice. The end.
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