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I think it's very important because when you have an institution that actively seeks to impose their sense of morality upon ALL the people based upon some dude that never even existed, their mandate is rendered empty. No more blue laws, no more abortion debate, no more Prop 8... no more idiocy.
Imagine if you showed Einstein that his theory of relativity was flawed because its entire foundation was based on 1+1=3. He would have to stop everything, rethink his entire view of the universe and start over. If you show that Jesus likely never even existed, maybe the religious right would stay the hell out of my life. Heck, maybe they would even become atheists.
I think it's very important because when you have an institution that actively seeks to impose their sense of morality upon ALL the people based upon some dude that never even existed, their mandate is rendered empty. No more blue laws, no more abortion debate, no more Prop 8... no more idiocy.
Imagine if you showed Einstein that his theory of relativity was flawed because its entire foundation was based on 1+1=3. He would have to stop everything, rethink his entire view of the universe and start over. If you show that Jesus likely never even existed, maybe the religious right would stay the hell out of my life. Heck, maybe they would even become atheists.
I guess this is where I disagree. Where you have a belief system which is essentially based on an imaginary being, whether one of the key figures in that system really existed or not is irrelevant. They will just continue to 'believe' he existed no matter what evidence you throw at them.
Also, I think you are crediting the religious with being more rational than they actually are.
I guess this is where I disagree. Where you have a belief system which is essentially based on an imaginary being, whether one of the key figures in that system really existed or not is irrelevant. They will just continue to 'believe' he existed no matter what evidence you throw at them.
Also, I think you are crediting the religious with being more rational than they actually are.
I'm with you on this. When I left theism, I at first felt that religion deserved a measure of respect, but the more distance I have from it the more firm I am in the conclusion that religious faith inherently is diametrically opposed to following the facts wherever they might take you. There's a stemwinder of a thread over on freeratio.org which is a debate about the Problem of Evil, running to nearly 400 pages of two believers evading logical argument and sound evidence and basically bending themselves into pretzels to preserve dogma and avoid taboo ideas. It's by turns entertaining, ghastly, and ultimately boring. I realize that this is just two Christians but I see nothing in their "thinking" that is unique other than perhaps not knowing when to quit while you're behind.
The only bone I'm willing to throw theists anymore is that it's not just theism that's guilty of this, it's the same phenomenon with racists and homophobes and anyone else who has an idea they feel protects them from some aspect of life they find intolerable (mortality, the presence of the Other, life not behaving like it's "supposed to", people not being like they're "supposed to" be, etc). If you have enough ego invested in ideas that shield you from unfiltered reality, and/or if you're afraid enough of reality, then reasoning with you is like asking a drowning person not to cling to you and drag you under while you're trying to save them. It's a fool's errand. You have to knock them out and drag them to shore and hope they don't dive back in when they wake up.
Faith is not just a matter of resisting available data that you don't want and inventing unavailable data that you do want; it's also a matter of the dark side of idealism. It's fine to conceive an ideal and work toward it in a pragmatic way but when you stop to think of it religious faith is idealism run amok. It's basically a fairyland of "wouldn't it be nice if life were all about me -- if there were an all powerful god who I had a special "in" with who would watch over me, protect me, guide me, and bless me, explain everything, and slay all my enemies? And wouldn't it be nice if I were immortal and would live in a perfect world as a reward for believing in this god even though he's invisible?"
For humanity to survive in the long term it needs to get away from these infantile ideas and in all humility assume its true place in whatever passes for the great scheme of things ... which is that we have no inherent importance at all, that we are a very lucky accident, and that we should treasure what we actually have, which is consciousness for a brief time which we can help each other to enjoy. Christians bristle at such statements precisely because they are in the midst of a deliberate inflation that won't allow them to accept the truth about themselves. Even some unbelievers find the idea of their own mortality and lack of a starring role on some scripted stage as intolerable. Hence the constant search for a "higher purpose" and the complete failure to find their own purpose.
I can't relate and I do not care. It won't help us today. Speaking in biblical terms no one died for me, common sense tells me that.
Maybe he was the first Joel Osteen, or Benny Hinn, a con man playing to the fears of others, but common sense also makes it clear that he was NOT conceived by any invisible deity, though that may be what the unwed mother told her parents
Maybe he was the first Joel Osteen, or Benny Hinn, a con man playing to the fears of others, but common sense also makes it clear that he was NOT conceived by any invisible deity, though that may be what the unwed mother told her parents
Different people One is a chubby faced object of fun whose ludicrous antics make him one of the biggest laughter- producers in the Western world. The other is a professional comedian.
I understand that atheists/nonbelievers do not believe in Christianity or any other religion, but if you read the holy Bible (New Testament), read quotes by Jesus Christ and saw how loving, friendly and great he was; Do you at least acknowledge him as a hero or great leader/person?
The reason why I brought up this topic was due to having an atheist friend who dislike religion, but had an image of Jesus Christ in his room because he loved his quotes and consider him an awesome hero and said everybody should be like Christ.
I also watched a clip online when a Muslim Imam said that even him had an image of Christ, along with some other famous people.
Yes, there are enough historical evidence that a person named Jesus Christ existed. Now, we cannot proof that he was Son of God just like we cannot proof that God exists 100% (Even though we believe in Him) and nobody could proof that God does not exists either.
You can never convince me that Jesus did exist. Where is the proof, the Bible?
Maybe he did represent something good at 1 time if he existed, but the re-interpretations of what he may or may not have said has been tweak so many times through out history I just get upset when I hear that name.
I think there is sufficient evidence to believe that Jesus existed. The problem comes with separating logical conclusions about his life, from mythology and religious symbolism. Josephus and Tacitus both make casual reference to Jesus, the latter indicating that Jesus was executed in Judaea during the governance of Pontius Pilot.
Jesus was one of numerous individuals running around Judaea claiming to be the "Messiah" as prophesized in The Hebrew Bible. Perhaps he stood out because he was more charismatic than the others. To Jewish leaders of the time, he was a dangerous character who was advocating for a radical reform of Judaism. To the Romans, he and his followers represented the threat of a minor civil uprising. He was captured and sentenced to death. As a non-Roman citizen, the method of Jesus' execution would have almost certainly been crucifixion. The story of his entombment and resurrection is likely little more than a symbolic variation of the "Jonah and the Whale" myth, developed by early Christians decades after his death.
I don't find Jesus to have been particularly heroic, although I do have a certain level of respect for radical thinkers. He was a man who would seem to have been a very good orator, who challenged the status quo. It would also be reasonable to assume that he was clinically delusional in his belief that he was a deity. All in all, the perfect figurehead for a cult.
I think there is sufficient evidence to believe that Jesus existed.
Oh really? Do tell us of this "evidence."
This is what really gets me riled up: if we Atheists are going to separate ourselves from the religious/magical thinkers of the world, we better put up or shut up. We can't say we are logical, rational, evidence-based thinkers and then willingly give in to a religious non-evidence based assumption that this myth character really existed. If we do, we're no better than they are.
If some of us are constantly showing that there is NO evidence that Jesus existed and the rest of us (Jaggy, rogead and John13) are saying, "Well, gee. I guess Jesus was a real leader who had some good ideas, but he wasn't the son of god because there is no god"... or worse: "I don't care because it's not important," then we've lost all credibility because we have already given in to magical thinking we so oppose.
This is why it's important.
If we truly are going to agree that we live in a world based on science, truth and rational thought, then you better damn well show me the truth that Jesus existed. I think I already shown above that he didn't.
Last edited by logline; 09-02-2012 at 12:48 PM..
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