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Ahhhh.... the all-time 50 list came out in 1997 so no, Kobe Bryant, then a 18 year old rookie would not be on the list. Dirk? Dirk wasn't even IN the league in 1997. If they was to do an 'updated' 50 greatest list in 2011, obviously quite a few of today's greats would have to make the cut.
With all due respect, on the bolded point, I now seriously question the extent of your basketball knowledge, to make such a comment about Bird. This is complete and utter blasphemy.
I know it wouldn't be popular *but*, look at the top 5 or 6. It's extremely selective company.
Jordan - 6 rings. Very possible 7 or 8. He transcended the game. Similar to Ali or Ruth. Definitely a unique skill set, both offensively and defensively.
Magic - 5 rings. Again, very unique, special. That's why he's always on these lists, in the top 5. How many 6'9 point guards have done what he's done in the last 20 years? Or will ever do?
Wilt - Most dominant center ever. Stats that no one will ever see again, in scoring and rebounding.
Kareem - 6 rings. 6 mvps. Longevity.
Bill Russell - Extremely unique. 11 rings??
The question with the top 5 or 6, (and why I commented about bird), how many players will ever do what they've done?
I don't think anyone will ever be like Jordan. Another 6'9 point guard who can lead fast breaks, and change the game the way Magic did? I doubt it. Russell, Kareem, Wilt have locks in their categories. Bird is still a legend, but I don't know if he's changed the game as much as the other 5. The top 5 or 6 are players who have changed the game in some way. Beyond being just a great player.
I bet in 10 or 20 years, some guys will start falling off the list...like oscar robertson, west, baylor. The lack of being able to see them play. The game has already changed, but it will be even harder to compare their style vs today.
-Another test of the top 5 or 7 - So you don't think I'm crazy. The silhouette test. These players are so iconic, you know their moves in silhouette, or black and white.
Jordan immortalized dunking (nike)
Dr J. You know who he would be in black and white.
Wilts dominance you could identify.
Kareems moves and Russell.
If you showed a highschool class in 30 years some NBA tape, could they identify bird in black and white? Many of these guys changed the way you handle a basketball...it goes beyond points or championships. This is why I put Bird towards the bottom on a top 10 list. Sure, he's a great clutch player, but there have been a lot of great clutch players. Same with being an all around player. I'd say the top 5 or 6 changed the way you handle a basketball more than Bird.
Jordan - 6 rings. Very possible 7 or 8. He transcended the game. Similar to Ali or Ruth. Definitely a unique skill set, both offensively and defensively.
So unique, that someone like Kobe Bryant has come along and damn near approximated Jordan in playing style and level of play? Note that I'm not suggesting Kobe is better, but at his best he was pretty damn close to what we saw from Jordan, both in skill and in play style.
Wilt - Most dominant center ever. Stats that no one will ever see again, in scoring and rebounding.
Stats that were basically a product of the era. And for all that physical dominance, he only managed two titles, one of which was part of an ensemble Lakers cast in 1972 when he wasn't at his dominant prime.
Kareem - 6 rings. 6 mvps. Longevity.
No argument here.
Bill Russell - Extremely unique. 11 rings??
In an 11 league team where the Celtics had the majority of great players on their roster? Winning that many titles when you have far and away the most and best talent is a given. That 60's Celtics team had quite a number of hall of fame players, a testament to my point.Which is not to undermine what Russell accomplished, just a touch of perspective is needed though.
The question with the top 5 or 6, (and why I commented about bird), how many players will ever do what they've done?
Bird won 3 titles in what is considered the golden era of the NBA, the 80's. As far as saying who's better between Magic and Bird, that's pretty much splitting hairs. What made Bird unique? His ability to dominate with his mind, with his IQ, with his ability to see plays two to three steps ahead of everyone else. These are traits that Bird had moreso than basically any other player, which is part of what made( and makes to this day) him such a unique player. Anyone who's watched Bird play in his heyday knows that he was several mental steps ahead of just about everyone else on the floor.
Another test of the top 5 or 7 - So you don't think I'm crazy. The silhouette test. These players are so iconic, you know their moves in silhouette, or black and white.
Jordan immortalized dunking (nike)
Dr J. You know who he would be in black and white.
Wilts dominance you could identify.
Kareems moves and Russell.
The silhouette test??? What kind of point is this?
If you showed a highschool class in 30 years some NBA tape, could they identify bird in black and white? Many of these guys changed the way you handle a basketball...it goes beyond points or championships. This is why I put Bird towards the bottom on a top 10 list. Sure, he's a great clutch player, but there have been a lot of great clutch players. Same with being an all around player. I'd say the top 5 or 6 changed the way you handle a basketball more than Bird.
Rarely do I have 'nothing to say' but this point is so.....odd, I'll let the board tackle that one. I can tell you know little about the nuances of Basketball, if you think Bird was just 'another' clutch player. At most, you've said that Bird isn't 'better' than 6-7 players here, when before you were saying that he's still in the top 11-12 players. Of course all of this is subjective, but very rarely have I heard anyone say that Bird wasn't a unique talent. You'll see 5 more Jordan clones( in playing style, athletic prowess) before you'll see a Larry Bird type player. Let's be honest now; we've heard people compare Dwyane Wade, Kobe Bryant, a young Vince Carter to Jordan. How many times have you heard someone say 'player x plays like Larry Bird?' And no, Dirk Nowitzki being white and a great shooter doesn't mean he plays 'like' Bird, as was recently debated on this board.
Top 5 is hard to narrow down. They've got to be iconic and change basketball.
-The reason so many players are compared to Jordan, isn't because they are "like" Jordan, per se, but because he's set such a high benchmark. Jordan is talked about in the same breath or debate as Muhammed Ali, Babe Ruth...greatest 20th century athletes. I've never heard Carter or Kobe mentioned with Ali or Ruth.
Kobe has come close to Jordan, but isn't Jordan still the gold standard that everyone wants to be like?
-Wilt, Russell played in a different era, but there were still plenty of talented players in the 60's....west, baylor, robertson, etc.
George Mikan's name is rarely mentioned in these debates because he played in a different era..the game was more developmental. Russell was playing after the shot clock was developed. If Russell played from 1949 to 60, and half of his titles came before the shot clock era, then he probably wouldn't be on the list. Would you say Russell is the greatest defensive center of all time?
Everything I've read about Russell said he dominated like no one else. 11 league team or not, didn't they have the longest winning streak of any pro sports team? Taking his name off, would be like taking Gordie Howe off a list, because the nhl only had 6 or 12 teams then.
-I give magic the nod over bird, being a 6'9 point guard, his ability to pass the ball. He changed the game in terms of his versatility. I have a hard time believing another 6'9 guard is going to come along..."boy, he looks just like Magic, moves like him". ??? Not likely. And win 5 titles, 3 mvps. Birds mental toughness, iq, will to win...I don't know if its as untouchable.
What about Tim Duncan vs Bird?
4x champion, 3 finals mvps vs 3 championships, 2 finals mvps. Both rookie of the year. You could say they both changed their teams in similar ways. Spurs and Celtics would be a really good rivalry.
Players like duncan and kobe start messing up the old top 5, the 50 greatest players in 96/97.
How would you rank Kobe vs Bird in terms of mental toughness, iq, will to win, dominance? Kobe is probably the most motivated player I've ever seen. Hasn't he studied more tape than any player in history? Or close.
Top 5 is hard to narrow down. They've got to be iconic and change basketball.
They don't have to change anything. That's your subjective criteria. Are you saying Larry Bird isn't iconic?
-The reason so many players are compared to Jordan, isn't because they are "like" Jordan, per se, ................ I've never heard Carter or Kobe mentioned with Ali or Ruth.
Umm yes it is. The reason why Kobe, Wade, and Carter have been compared to Jordan is because they were/are some similarities in terms of play style and athleticism. Once again it's not saying they were on the same level as Jordan, it's to say that aesthetically/stylistically/athletically they resembled Jordan to some degree. It has nothing to do with comparing Kobe with Babe Ruth. You're missing the point.
Kobe has come close to Jordan, but isn't Jordan still the gold standard that everyone wants to be like?
Yes he is, but the main point alludes you again. You said Jordan is a unique player in terms of skills and playstyle, moreso than Bird was. That's what you said..... and I just named a player that just about everyone says has clearly modeled their game after Jordan in terms of skills and play style. Now.... I challenge you to name one player that plays more like Larry Bird, than Kobe plays like Jordan.
-Wilt, Russell played in a different era, but there were still plenty of talented players in the 60's....west, baylor, robertson, etc.
Your point here?
George Mikan's name is rarely mentioned in these debates because he played in a different era..the game was more developmental.
Yes. Your main point? No-one's taking about Mikan here.
Would you say Russell is the greatest defensive center of all time?
Probably, but then again would he be as dominant defensively in this era? Of course not.....the game has dramatically evolved. But I won't get into the era argument for this point of debate. In terms of dominance against his peers, Russell's the best center-defender.
Everything I've read about Russell said he dominated like no one else. 11 league team or not, didn't they have the longest winning streak of any pro sports team? Taking his name off, would be like taking Gordie Howe off a list, because the nhl only had 6 or 12 teams then.
They won 11 titles in 13 seasons, which likely is the the greatest streak in sports. Doesn't remove the point that the Celtics were far and away more talented than the other teams in that era. If Jordan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, played together and won 10 titles, would we consider any of them as great as they are now? Of course not. Which is to say, not to belittle Russell, the 60's Celtics had several guys now in the Hall of fame, which is to say anything less than multiple titles would be unacceptable. And Russell scored 15 points on under 45% shooting, which is poor for a center. So his dominance was on one side of the court, above all else he was a defensive anchor.
-I give magic the nod over bird, being a 6'9 point guard, his ability to pass the ball. He changed the game in terms of his versatility. I have a hard time believing another 6'9 guard is going to come along..."boy, he looks just like Magic, moves like him". ??? Not likely. And win 5 titles, 3 mvps. Birds mental toughness, iq, will to win...I don't know if its as untouchable.
First, Magic was 6'7-6'8. Second, while no player has exceeded Magic in that 'big point guard' category, there's been a number of 'larger' point guards that have come out since. Steve Smith....Anfernee 'Penny' Hardaway...Lebron James as a rookie was compared directly to Magic because of his passing. In fact, a forgotten fact is Lebron played the point his rookie year.
What about Tim Duncan vs Bird?
4x champion, 3 finals mvps vs 3 championships, 2 finals mvps. Both rookie of the year. You could say they both changed their teams in similar ways. Spurs and Celtics would be a really good rivalry.
Many people have Duncan in their top 10 as well. As do I......
How would you rank Kobe vs Bird in terms of mental toughness, iq, will to win, dominance? Kobe is probably the most motivated player I've ever seen. Hasn't he studied more tape than any player in history? Or close.
Mental toughness, will to win may be a wash, though I've seen a few times where Kobe deliberately didn't shoot much in a game, due to criticism that he shot too much, and possibly cost the Lakers the game. Give me Bird in that department. IQ?? I can't believe you're asking me that. Bird may have arguably the highest Bball IQ I've seen, and that includes Jordan and Magic. It was off the charts... his instincts, awareness, hand-eye co-ordination, allowed him to dominate the game even though he was athletically inferior to many of his contemporaries. Frankly IQ isn't a area I rate Kobe too high in, his sometimes poor shot selection and inability, after 15 seasons, to sometimes mix that perfect blend of scorer and facilitator that Jordan mastered over time.
I bring up Mikan because it solidifies Wilt and Russell's numbers. I think the celtics dominance in the 50's and 60's is more analogous to John Wooden's Bruins....than putting a whole bunch of all stars together.
-Another point. Look at the Lakers team that assembled Shaq, Kobe, Karl Malone, Gary Payton. Huge talent, but they didn't win it. Just because you have a high collection of talent or all stars, doesn't mean you're going to win a championship. They're not always going to be healthy. There can be clashes (i.e. shaq and kobe).
-Jordan is much more unique than Bird.
6 Titles. 6 Finals MVP's. 5 regular MVP's. 10x scoring champion. Who's going to catch him with 10 scoring titles? It shows his consistency. Remember his dominance in the finals? Against Utah. It was like he was trying to end his career on a perfect note. Hitting the perfect 3 with 20 seconds left. Or setting up this shot with this much remaining on the clock.
I put Jordan way up at the top because it was almost like he was able to script his career. Remember the flu game? The way his career was ending between, 1995 and 97 was basically perfect for a top athlete or all star. He was going out on the perfect high note. This is part of Jordans maturity and intangibles. He wanted to leave at the very top.
The best comparison with Bird is probably Duncan. Similar career trajectories. Rookie of the year. They both came into talented teams, but changed direction.
I think the celtics of the 80's and spurs of the late 90's, 00's are more about the parts, and how the parts interact than any one player.
-Steve Smith, Hardaway, Lebron, I dont think any of them can handle the ball with ease the way magic can. Wasn't Magic always around 230-250 lbs? Magic handled the ball the way a traditional point guard would, like john Stockton.
Kobe is probably the most motivated NBA player I've ever seen. I.e., being a loner, always watching tape in his hotel, etc. Being the best basketball player has been in his blood since he was 6. I don't think he's been able to control that motivation the way he wants...i.e., erratic play, poor shot selection, bad blend of scorer and facilitator late in the game. I think he's put so much pressure on himself to "be the best"....it's hurt his game.
I bring up Mikan because it solidifies Wilt and Russell's numbers.
Solidifies them in reference to what? Elaborate.
I think the celtics dominance in the 50's and 60's is more analogous to John Wooden's Bruins....than putting a whole bunch of all stars together.
Bill Russell, Bob Cousy, K.C Jones, Bill Sharman,Tom Heinsohn, Sam Jones are all in the hall of fame. And all of those players were the foundation of those 60's Celtics that dominated the decade. Sooooo.... regarding your stance that it wasn't about putting a whole bunch of all stars together, would you care to have a rethink? That team had SIX hall of famers.So as I said before, they had far superior talent to everyone else playing, including the best player in Russell. And Red Auberbach as coach. Shall I go on?
-Another point. Look at the Lakers team that assembled Shaq, Kobe, Karl Malone, Gary Payton. Huge talent, but they didn't win it.
Flawed argument. Payton was 36, Malone was 41. Put those players at the peak of their powers, the results are likely quite different. As it was, they made it to the finals with Malone getting injured at the end, Kobe flying back and forth between the court and his rape trial.
-Jordan is much more unique than Bird.
In terms of what? Skills? Playing style?And even if he is( which he isn't because I've already named some players who many have compared to Jordan in one way or another), you're making the assertion that Bird isn't unique in his own right. And, in my opinion, that assertion is blasphemy.You haven't yet named ONE player who you can say is similar to Bird, yet you claim he isn't that unique.
6 Titles. 6 Finals MVP's. 5 regular MVP's. 10x scoring champion. Who's going to catch him with 10 scoring titles?
This is a list of accomplishments. Who SKILLWISE and PLAYWISE plays similar to Larry Bird? You haven't given me a name yet. Waiting.....
It shows his consistency. Remember his dominance in the finals? Against Utah. It was like he was trying to end his career on a perfect note. Hitting the perfect 3 with 20 seconds left. Or setting up this shot with this much remaining on the clock.
I put Jordan way up at the top because it was almost like he was able to script his career. Remember the flu game? The way his career was ending between, 1995 and 97 was basically perfect for a top athlete or all star. He was going out on the perfect high note. This is part of Jordans maturity and intangibles. He wanted to leave at the very top.
For the record, I think Michael Jordan is the greatest ever. So before you go anymore into this excessive ramble, know that I'm not contending Jordan vs Bird in terms of how they rank historically. I'm waiting for you to make a logical case that Bird isn't one of the more unique talents in NBA history, and a legitimate top 10 player. You haven't made a convincing case against either point.
The best comparison with Bird is probably Duncan. Similar career trajectories. Rookie of the year. They both came into talented teams, but changed direction.
That's where the similarities end. Two different positions, skillsets. Still waiting for you to give me a name of someone who PLAYS like Larry Bird. Somehow, I suspect you'll go around the mulberry bush again, without answering that question.
-Steve Smith, Hardaway, Lebron, I dont think any of them can handle the ball with ease the way magic can. Wasn't Magic always around 230-250 lbs? Magic handled the ball the way a traditional point guard would, like john Stockton.
No, Magic was at most 220. And I suspect you saw little of Penny Hardaway in his prime, because he was an incredibly deft ball-handler. The main point is, I just named you 3 players who were clearly influenced by Magic in one way or another. I didn't say any of them are BETTER than Magic, merely that they were influenced by them. Do you understand the difference?
Reply in bold
Last edited by Roman77; 07-01-2011 at 07:53 PM..
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