California vegetable experience for those with "nature deficit disorder" (Rainbow: living, agriculture)

[dclamb3]

Originally Posted by TrueTimbers

Hmmm, well stated, the dilemma of the day.. To recapture the wisdom of a child.. or for that matter IMHO the wisdom of so many other life forms on earth..

Amen! I always say, if humans were better people, they'd be "animals." We have a lot to learn as a species.

As for how vegetable-eaters smell, an odd topic, but I'm a veggie lover and greenie (and my birth parents are hippies), yet I smell and look like all the other yuppie zombies in the corporate district. I suppose different strokes, for different folks.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by dclamb3

Amen! I always say, if humans were better people, they'd be "animals." We have a lot to learn as a species.

Humans do the things they do precisely because they are animals......we are just the only animal that has been privileged with almost complete dominance over the planet. When I see a pack of coyotes attack a deer....I don't see them praying to the sun god for its gift...they just eat, eat ,eat....and they would eat every last deer on the planet without thinking twice if the were able to do so...

I don't know, I guess in today's world where so few people have contact with wild animals, its easy to develop warm and fuzzy ideas about them....

Ever been face to face with a bear in the wild?

[dclamb3]

Originally Posted by user_id

Humans do the things they do precisely because they are animals......we are just the only animal that has been privileged with almost complete dominance over the planet. When I see a pack of coyotes attack a dear....I don't see them praying to the sun god for its gift...they just eat, eat ,eat....and they would eat every last dear on the planet without thinking twice if the were able to do so...

I don't know, I guess in today's world where so few people have contact with wild animals, its easy to develop warm and fuzzy ideas about them....

Ever been face to face with a bear in the wild?

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm not here to change your view, and this is one topic I can guarantee you will not change my view on.

Most of my opinions are very open for change, given new ways of looking at them that I'd never considered (I even encourage hearing the other side because I feel it makes both of us better people).

However, after 35 years of feeling this way about this topic, I've heard it all (believe me) from the other side, and I still have not changed my mind.

So, my only response to the above (since I'm not here to change your mind and, therefore, I'm not going to spend time responding to each of your points, while I appreciate them for what they are), is that we will have to agree to disagree.

[TrueTimbers]

user...
The "click" or "connection" with THE bio dynamic system, has profound effects on many people... Many interpret things beyond their understanding/comprehension as a spiritual experience.. (right, wrong or indifferent.. simply human nature.)

Often those beginning to understand organic, bio dynamic systems or eastern medicine make some sort of "spiritual" connection, where as western medicine or modern conventional agriculture are more about mans battle or dominance over nature and how man can conquer their environment... Which may give one a sense of greatness, but typically it is not the profound experience, that one gets when they find they can fit into the existing system without modifying it... It is a humbling experience, not about winning or loosing, but finding species that are your allies and teaming up with them. Kind of a coexistence/ mutual reciprocity, respect, kinda thing.. (Big picture kinda stuff, one sees the same patterns repeat from the smallest microbes to entire galaxies. One giant perpetual interdependent recycling system..)

Cool, neat, fascinating, inspiring, interesting, amazing, spiritual, religious... Lots of descriptors for it... Everyone is impacted differently ....
----

Science classes... Indeed the project on the big sur coast is a science class.. One needs to have a decent understanding of microbiology and chemistry in order to practice the "art form" of bio dynamic agriculture..

The science is different than western conventional.. It is based on feeding the soil, not the plants..This "rediscovery" is not only for amateurs, it is likely the status quo for a sustainable future. .

This book Teaming with Micorbes is a good primer on the subject:
Amazon.com: Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web (9780881927771): Jeff Lowenfels, Wayne Lewis: Books

[user_id]

Originally Posted by dclamb3

... and this is one topic I can guarantee you will not change my view on.

Certainly.....religious beliefs are inherently emotional and can't be changed with rational dialogue. I was just making general commentary....in response to the views you expressed which are widely held by particular groups.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by user_id

Certainly.....religious believes are inherently emotional and can't be changed with rational dialogue.

"Believes?" What are believes? Irrational dialogue!

[user_id]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

"Believes?" What are believes? Irrational dialogue!

Man...where would I be without you guys pointing out my typos?

But I tell ya, you have a busy job ahead of you....

[TrueTimbers]

Originally Posted by user_id

Humans do the things they do precisely because they are animals......we are just the only animal that has been privileged with almost complete dominance over the planet. When I see a pack of coyotes attack a deer....I don't see them praying to the sun god for its gift...they just eat, eat ,eat....and they would eat every last deer on the planet without thinking twice if the were able to do so...

I don't know, I guess in today's world where so few people have contact with wild animals, its easy to develop warm and fuzzy ideas about them....

Ever been face to face with a bear in the wild?

I can agree with some of what you say... But I feel this dominance over the planet is just an illusion, a blip in time, an anomaly.. Like many other species given the right environment we flourish then may crash when that environment changes. Now, some species have demonstrated restraint on breeding and multiplying and will not decimate their food supply if given a chance, they will not breed like flies or will disperse over a wide range to not decimate the food supply. What is that all about?

No we do not see your coyotes praying to the sun gods, but I am not going to pretend I understand what is going on in a coyotes mind when the are howling and yipping before a hunt.. I do feel any attempt to understand will be placing humanistic emotions on it which would be silly... Maybe the coyote is more advanced than us, maybe it lives in the "now" no need for constructs of "spirituality" to provide comfort or wisdom. Heck who knows-is it really relevant?

Really we are watching human evolution unfold before our eyes... We are social creatures, and the debates of our times is simply our species creating friction within our social structure as different groups take slightly different paths. At some point natural selection will decide for us which was the right or wrong path... Me, I will take the conservative cautious path. I trust nature for guidance more than man..

Yes I have been face to face with bear in the wild many time... Interesting creatures. I usually sense their presence before seeing or smelling them. They have a dark heavy presence for me...Definitely not a spirit animal for me..

What is the point? Not very different than us, eat, sleep, breed, protect and care for their young, have social order so on and so forth.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by TrueTimbers

user...
The "click" or "connection" with THE bio dynamic system, has profound effects on many people... Many interpret things beyond their understanding/comprehension as a spiritual experience..

Sure, people will interpret things in their particular (usually religious) framework...and I shouldn't have bothered disputing religious beliefs. Religion, outside of anthropological discussions, is a topic I usually avoid...

Originally Posted by TrueTimbers

Often those beginning to understand organic, bio dynamic systems or eastern medicine make some sort of "spiritual" connection

Oh geez...now its "eastern medicine" too?

Originally Posted by TrueTimbers

where as western medicine or modern conventional agriculture are more about mans battle or dominance over nature and how man can conquer their environment...

This is silly, western medicine, etc are about science....that is the objectively analysis of empirical claims. Anybody involved in agriculture, whether its a home garden or a large farm, is trying to conquer their environment. Agriculture is, by definition, the manipulation of the environment to yield greater quantities of food stuffs....

Man has been manipulating the environment from day one and without his tools, etc he is an utterly pathetic creature.... That is, man has evolved into who he is today because our ancestors developed tools and otherwise manipulated his environment.

The touchy-feely nature stuff is a delusions created by humans current disconnection from nature. Which is the irony of the OP, its a hippie group involved with agriculture.......something that has only existed in recent human history. That is, a creation of man, not nature....

Originally Posted by TrueTimbers

...but typically it is not the profound experience, that one gets when they find they can fit into the existing system without modifying it...

You mean the delusion, almost every animal and plant we eat has been manipulated genetically by man....

[jaijai]

Originally Posted by user_id

Certainly.....religious beliefs are inherently emotional and can't be changed with rational dialogue. I was just making general commentary....in response to the views you expressed which are widely held by particular groups.

Science and spirituality / mysticism are not mutually exclusive ... are not diametrically opposed.
As science progresses their convergence is ever more apparent.
To be solely (and arrogantly and ignorantly!) materialistic / rationalistic is pure folly.
The fundamental reality which quantum physics describes is not at all incompatible with the fundamental reality testified to by mystics down through the ages.
And though i joke about myself, the label "hippie" is just that and i'm certainly no new age ninnie.