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We moved out of California to Florida because of the taxes, we are waiting after the election to see if we want to start our new company. If election doesn't go our way we will most likely not take the risk of starting a new company, we are young and ambitious but just don't want to work for the Govn't. We sold our company so we don't have to work anymore, we like the idea of employing people and creating nothing out of something. I believe in the trickle down theory, with no new entrepreneurs = no new jobs!
I am trying to understand your statement about:
"I bought within my means and got screwed. The govt only gives bailouts to people (including corporations) who stretched themselves. If you acted responsibly, you got screwed"
Do you mean that you bought a house at the height of the bubble (that you could afford) and lost it [or walked away from it]-- or, that you bought high and have retained it, continuing to make payments on an upside-down equity position? (and feel that means you are getting screwed?)
If you mean you are keeping up on payments on a negative position while others stopped making payments to force a more favorable loan restructure, I would point out the following:
• people who can make their payments on upside-down properties can also refuse and force restructuring negotiations (which the mortgage companies may, or may not accept) same as anyone who can't make their payments. You may value your home too much to gamble with this. That is your choice. If you value your home purchase too much to gamble, then, in a sense, apparently your personal value of your home isn't upside-down. It's not against any law to walk away, even if you can afford your payments. Lots of people are doing it. Lots of healthy businesses, including banks, walk away from obligations all the time just because a bad deal is bad business. There's no ethics anymore in business. If the banks themselves aren't willing to be ethical, why should individuals feel any business responsibility back?
In another question I would ask: how has the government given "bailouts to people who stretched themselves"? While there have been a few programs floated that have helped restructure a small percentage of loans, the numbers are very small statistically. And, in many cases, the restructures haven't reduced costs at all -- merely kept people in the homes in a delaying tactic until they can regain the ability to pay -- mostly including back interest and penalties. In fact, on some restructures, the amount made by the lenders on the refinance will be higher than the original loan.
I put 20% down and am continuing to make payments. If I were to foreclose or walk away, my credit would be ruined and I would lose my down payment. I can't refinance at the lower rate because I need to put another 40k to have 20% equity. At this point I don't think it's worth it.
The point is that the actions of others affect people who act responsibly and this is called getting screwed.
The Red State Socialism argument is only damning if you ignore facts. If you have an interstate highway running though your state, there isn't much a state government can do about that. Let's also not forget military bases, subsides programs (aka federally driven crony capitalism), ratio of people on some form of government assistance, federal mandates, etc.
People act like fly over country states are some wastelands that have no industry and produce nothing. Unless you consider oil, natural gas, and food produce worthless.
i don't believe that any turned around and bought another house, unless they managed it somehow out of legal channels. but the free rent is small compensation for those of us that lost ALL the money from the down payment. then you CAN'T buy another right away even if you DID have the money. which a lot of people don't.
According to two of them, they secured another house before walking away from the original. I know of another couple who drained their 401k to have a custom house built. They ended up in a dispute with a neighbor over a road and by the time they got it done their house was 300k less in value. They were stuck with 2 homes and couldn't sell either. Eventually they had to give the custom one back to the bank but they ate 150k Made our troubles seem trivial to say the least. (blew an engine in my M3)
The red staters can complain about this when they start net paying taxes because right now the blue states are carrying most of the weight themselves. The only major red state which does net pay taxes is Texas and they do so just barely.
BTW our right wing friends always only want to talk about total numbers of people on welfare vs welfare cases per 100,000 population. It is only by normalizing the rates that we can compare the rate of welfare between the various states and when you do that you can see that, no, California is not the welfare capital. It's population is just so much larger than the other states that the raw numbers look large until you normalize it as a percentage of population or as the number of cases per 100,000.
I put 20% down and am continuing to make payments. If I were to foreclose or walk away, my credit would be ruined and I would lose my down payment. I can't refinance at the lower rate because I need to put another 40k to have 20% equity. At this point I don't think it's worth it.
The point is that the actions of others affect people who act responsibly and this is called getting screwed.
you have a very strange viewpoint to all this. don't agree at all. we all got screwed but that isn't WHY.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer
According to two of them, they secured another house before walking away from the original. I know of another couple who drained their 401k to have a custom house built. They ended up in a dispute with a neighbor over a road and by the time they got it done their house was 300k less in value. They were stuck with 2 homes and couldn't sell either. Eventually they had to give the custom one back to the bank but they ate 150k Made our troubles seem trivial to say the least. (blew an engine in my M3)
The red staters can complain about this when they start net paying taxes because right now the blue states are carrying most of the weight themselves. The only major red state which does net pay taxes is Texas and they do so just barely.
BTW our right wing friends always only want to talk about total numbers of people on welfare vs welfare cases per 100,000 population. It is only by normalizing the rates that we can compare the rate of welfare between the various states and when you do that you can see that, no, California is not the welfare capital. It's population is just so much larger than the other states that the raw numbers look large until you normalize it as a percentage of population or as the number of cases per 100,000.
Do you use the same logic on an individual level as well?
I believe in some kind of safety net for the poor, kids and disabled. But is the system broken?
It's not broken. It's working exactly as planned. Enable/encourage undisciplined/self destructive behavior in order to make people dependent on the government in exchange for votes/power. The safety net aspect for those who truly need it is an afterthought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mover79
I have sided with Democrats on a lot of issues but I am starting to be swayed by Republican arguments. Republicans have their their version of corporate welfare as well. Both parties are in it for votes, Dems want unions, lawyers and the poor to vote for them and Republicans work for the rich corporations. The average voter continues to get dumber on issues by corporate media. Opinion passes as news.
I think this is somewhat accurate, with the glaring omission of the fact that many Democrats are a lot more beholden to business interests than they will ever admit to. That is especially true regarding the banks and other financial companies. The financial industry in general splits its campaign donations about 50/50 for each party, so the financial companies have both parties bought and paid for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mover79
I have seen people on welfare driving nice cars with fancy purses and iphones. They give you attitude when things don't go their way or when their "benefits" don't buy what they want. There is no humility and shame anymore.
This is not new, but I do think it's a growing problem. The entitlement attitude, while not unique to the welfare crowd, is something we Americans, and the Western World more generally, really need to get over. I agree there is no humility or shame anymore. This was the deliberate plan of a few liberal elites. Take the shame/stigma of single parenthood away, so that way you'll get lots of women (and their children) with low aspirations in life dependent on the government. It's a pure power play. The sons of single moms are much more prone to ending up in jail and the daughters much more likely to get pregnant as teens or to become single moms themselves (often both) so that the poverty cycle perpetuates itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mover79
People plan on staying on this system by having multiple kids even though they cannot provide the best for the existing ones. What happened to taking some responsibility?
Humans don't like to take responsibility for their actions. Not a new problem. But the current welfare system deliberately encourages the worst in human nature (as already explained).
Quote:
Originally Posted by mover79
The housing bubble was not only caused by banks lending money to people who couldn't afford it, it was also the fault of people who don't know how to manage their finances. So now are in this mess, stuck with properties that have been devalued even if you the right thing and bought within your means. Collectively screwed.
Correct. The elites (in this case, the banks) offer the bait (insane loans) and many folks will take it. Until people (as you say) take full responsibility for their lives, they will always be ruled by oppressive elites, in one form or another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mover79
The middle class have it worse. Our wages have been stagnant for last few decades while corporate profits continue to increase. All those gains in productivity due to technology continue to swell the wealth of the Forbes 400.
True, for the most part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mover79
Isn't 80% of the stock market owned by 20%?
It's probably more like 90% of the stock market is owned by 10%. That doesn't automatically mean the well off are oppressing the poor, though. Many people have no knowledge of anything financial beyond savings and checking accounts and many have no desire to learn. I think it would be a big help if we had financial education/planning as a requirement for high school graduation. But even so, as you said, people do have to take responsibility for their lives. Learning the basics of investments is not rocket science, but people have to be willing to learn. Many people simply aren't, yet they complain about being broke. A lot of people are also sealing their financial fate by having kids without being married. The out of wedlock birth rate is now up to about 41%. Not too many people are going to have money to save if they have a kid without being married, even if the other parent pays child support (running 2 households is expensive).
I'm not saying there is no manipulation of the financial markets, etc....but once again, ordinary people are working against themselves in so many ways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mover79
Now these same people will buy up properties for pennies on the dollar and there will be further concentration of wealth. I would hate to see the The American dream become a dream.
Correct. Unfortunately, starting in the 1960s, we embraced this philosophy of letting people "do their own thing". The problem with the "anything goes" philosophy is that people generally gravitate toward their worst tendencies, which leads to their impoverishment and to oppression by a tyrannical elite.
In essence, the elites gave us all the rope we needed to hang ourselves ("anything goes" sexual revolution, single parenthood and divorce socially acceptable, crazy loans, living in debt and/or payday to payday socially acceptable, hyper-materialism encouraged, credit given to anyone with a pulse, etc.). We took the rope the elites gave us and hung ourselves.
It's not broken. It's working exactly as planned. ... etc.
Good grief, man ... you have gone conspiratorial nuts
You sure are assigning a bazillion tons of intentionality to a system that is really more chaos than system.
It's all a much much more simple picture than you are painting:
humans are simply not designed -- in the slightest -- to live in large social numbers ...
the advent of governments and social systems came with the last little ice age forcing paleolithic man into the neolithic era of agriculture ... we are not designed for the diet that resulted ... we are not designed for the culture and control that resulted.
It's madness, all right. But it isn't an intentionally designed conspiracy. And there is no way out now.
Correct. Unfortunately, starting in the 1960s, we embraced this philosophy of letting people "do their own thing". The problem with the "anything goes" philosophy is that people generally gravitate toward their worst tendencies, which leads to their impoverishment and to oppression by a tyrannical elite.
In essence, the elites gave us all the rope we needed to hang ourselves ("anything goes" sexual revolution, single parenthood and divorce socially acceptable, crazy loans, living in debt and/or payday to payday socially acceptable, hyper-materialism encouraged, credit given to anyone with a pulse, etc.). We took the rope the elites gave us and hung ourselves.
wow, i think you're late for church. unless you are at work and getting paid for this?
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Made our troubles seem trivial to say the least. (blew an engine in my M3)
