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Enough said....again refinement - Malachi 3 - has only to do with the audience in question...and that is not the whole world ever has known, but only for the believer...WITH FAITH - Tribe of LEVI.
The point is quite moot because right now there are unbelievers that will come to believe at a later point and time.
The message is not something they will acknowledge, "right now", but it is a prophecy for all mankind declared in the core of scripture, the core of religious dogma is irrelevant.
However, there are weird people with weird ideas everything, which includes fundamentalists, Catholics, and I'm sure UR believers, too. Please keep in mind that UR is NOT a denomination. We might seem "all over the map" because we are from all different denominations or no denomination. There are Catholic URs on this forum. I'm a Baptist. There are many different beliefs about certain topics, but the common thread in UR is that we believe in God's ultimate restoration/redemption/reconciliation/salvation of all mankind.
If there is someone here claiming to be both "Catholic" and a Universal Soldier I assure you, they are are NOT Catholic--they are "Catholic in Name Only" (CINO). There are lots of CINO's sitting in the pews of Catholic Churches today. I guess some of these CINO's might be Universal Soldiers. There is a lot of apostasy now in mainstream Protestant Churches, including the Baptist Church.
As to those from other denominations who have "weird ideas"--those ideas concern me here only insofar as they cross the line into apostasy and dangerous heresy. Universal Soldier is a very dangerous heresy.
P.S. I know i said previously I would "leave it at that" but I had to clear up your point about Catholicism. Catholicism is misunderstood and misrepresented here all the time, often through sheer ignorance, not because someone has a vicious motive. I try to correct this misinformation when I come across it.
Just out of curiosity,why would Christians remain satisfied in heaven if most of the people ever born are in hell?Would this not offend their sense of compassion and love?
This is exactly my point. Mankind is already dead, according to Christ, but believing in Him, you are saved from being drowned, something you were destined to before Christ, and something you have without Christ in your life. It takes having Christ, being selected and regenerated, from drowning.
Paul said...in your words...we are all destined to drown, and are without excuse for believing in Christ, because they (wicked) are still drowning after the debt was paid, but the good news, is to tell people thatthey CAN BE SAVED FROM DROWNING...NOT ARE SAVED...But CAN BE SAVED.
This is consistent with CHrist's teachings, Paul's Peter's John and all the prophets of the OT...now UR says...we are all saved...no matter what we believe...and this...IS CONTRADICTORY TO HAVING FAITH.
LOVE DOES CONQUER ALL...for the believer....not for the unbeliever.
No love for God.....no love for man.
God loved the world so much...He gave His only Son...so that WE MAY INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE....NOT HAVE AUTOMATICALLY.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The scriptures defy this ALL REFINED theology to its core.
Enough said....again refinement - Malachi 3 - has only to do with the audience in question...and that is not the whole world ever has known, but only for the believer...WITH FAITH - Tribe of LEVI.
parphrasing some verses here...
As in Adam, ALL die.
So in Christ ALL will be made ALIVE.
God bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on us ALL.
He subjected us to this futility in HOPE... (why is that?)
And I, if I be raised up will DRAG all mankind to myself.
EVERY knee will bow, and EVERY Tongue confess.. to the glory of God.
on and on and on...
The beautiful story of redemption is THERE.
But certain things have to be in place in a person's mind/heart/spirit, I suppose, before a person can see it. That's all there is to it.
But in any case, brother... I KNOW God loves you, loves your family and I know that you are safe in His hands. Just as all of Creation is SAFE in His hands. I have full faith in that.
LOVE CONQUERS ALL.
I have full faith in this.
So much is on that wide path to destruction.
The darkness is being destroyed. HOW SO?
THE LIGHT!
LOVE CONQUERS ALL!
While I think it does speak volumes, I'm still a little confused as to how this doesn't line up with UR. I think we (UR's and ETers) ARE of one heart and mind as Christians who believe in and worship Jesus Christ as Lord.
Ilene, the reason I posted the quote from John was precisely for the reason that you indicate, above: that it speaks to both sides in terms of something that they can/are "unified" about...
June is not home at the moment, but will try and respond to the rest of the posts she would like to respond to, later. Meanwhile...
Universalism IS heresy, Ilene -- and it's MAJOR heresy of the most dangerous kind because it is so seductive. It's already conquered the secular world insofar as people no longer believe there is a hell. The effects of this deception on mankind are apparent all around us. Have you ever visited Auschwitz or Dachau?
Satan disguises himself as an Angel of Light, he is far more clever than you or I. As I recently discussed with Verna on another thread:
When contemplating these matters it is useful to keep in mind ALWAYS that Gnosticism is the central defining element in every major Christian heresy that has reared its head since Christ founded His Church, including the heresy of "Universal Reconciliation"--and that the "reconciliation of opposites," the so called "Great Work"--is the central doctrine that ties together all occult teachings.
Yes my friend, scripture is very clear: there will be NO marriage between the sheep and the goats on the Day of the Lord--or at any time after!
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. - Rev 22:11
Universal reconciliation is something the catholic church teaches... isn't it?
As in Adam, ALL die.
So in Christ ALL will be made ALIVE.
I will stop here. 1 Cor 15 and it's theme is resurrection, whether it be in group, as in the OT saints that died in faith in Adam, or the believer at regeneration....sown to raised, or the core foundation of all resurrection is Jesus Christ, but the message is clear, that it is those that are IN CHRIST, who recieve the glorious blessing OF RESURRECTION to LIFE. There is never any question as to what this verse is talking about. It is in no way directing its premise to those that are wicked, to those that reject the faith entirely, or to those that simply never heard of it. It is the blessing of resurrection to life for those that believe in the first resurrection...Christ.
Quote:
EVERY knee will bow, and EVERY Tongue confess.. to the glory of God.
Again, the context here is only that of those who are in COVENANT with God, those of the faith in the OT (Isaiah 45 - Israel/Zion) and those of the faith in the NT (Rom 10; Phli 2 - Israel Jew and Gentile in covenant)....and its premise is the ROTD and Parousia/Marriage of the Lamb and the Church- THE ALL IN ALL
The begging issue here, from what I have seen, and is happening right here in this poster words, as well as others, is that Universalism is cloaked in this fairy tale "post mortem" "corrective refinement" for the wicked, and although it preaches many truths of Orthodox Christianity, it imposes this extra-Biblical pagan concept into the mix, and the interesting thing is, it has different views on this state of correction that all are found nowhere in the scripture. I have yet to see one. They forget that the scriptures are a collection of God's inspired words to our teachers about THE COVENANT we must enter into, and the blessings and curses thereof that come on or befall us.
Covenant Covenant Covenant Covenant. Did I say Covenant?
Here let's look at them.
Burning Flame - See Lake Of Fire - Covenantal - ROTD - A Bad place Lake Of Fire - See Burning Flame - Devil; False Prophet - A Bad Place Malachi 3 - Covenantal - In the Faith - Levi - King Priests - Christian - Regeneration Consuming Fire - Covenantal - Those of the Faith - Pentacost - Joel 2 Lake of Fire and Brimstone - Gehenna was fed sulfur to keep the fire going - worms never die - Body and Soul destroyed.
Have I left any out?
Last edited by sciotamicks; 06-29-2010 at 05:32 PM..
June would be more than happy to respond to the above, but is afraid it will have to wait as she is pressed for time and needs to get to her office. She was thinking about this last night, however, and came across the quote, below, which in her mind would somehow seem to reconcile what is a huge, vast discrepency between the two sides of ET v. UR. For those who dislike/disaprove of "The Message" or don't accept it as being 'the bible' June apologizes in advance, but the quote, below, worked well for her:
"I'm praying not only for them
But also for those who will believe in me
Because of them and their witness about me.
The goal is for all of them to become one heart and mind --
Just as you, Father, are in me and I in you,
So they might be one heart and mind with us.
Then the world might believe that you, in fact, sent me.
The same glory you gave me, I gave them,
So they'll be a unified and together as we are --
I in them and you in me.
Then they'll be mature in this oneness,
And give the godless world evidence
That you've sent me adn loved them
In the same way you've loved me." (John 17:20-23)
...Somehow, the above speaks volumes to June, not the least of which saying that this whole divisive issue was somehow addressed in the gospel of John, but June could be attributing something to the above passage that isn't intended; quoting out of context?
Hopefully not....
Take gentle care.
Perhaps I am dense... I don't get it. What does the passage in John have to do with anything regarding UR or ET?
During the years of Jesus' ministry he makes it quite clear that he came to save the lost of the house of Israel. His focus was on the harlotry of the Jewish leadership with regard to the molestation of God's law. However, it is the rejection of the gospel of Christ by those Jewish leaders that grace was and is extended to the rest. The entire bible is not for the followers of Christ, but for the Jew. They followed the law by rote but none of it was accompanied by love for their fellow man and therefore amounted to nothing. The Jews were made jealous by the proclamation of salvation to those OUTSIDE the Jewish faith and the law was not a factor in that salvation. (Rom. 11:11). To the Jews it was as if God took their share of glory, and divided it amongst all people... I bet they were outraged all right!
Therefore, I don't really understand what you are trying to say here. Of course, it is difficult for me to try to use familiar "Christianity" terms when I don't ascribe to the majority of those views... but I try.
If I were talking to you from an agnostic point of view (which is closer to my belief system I guess) then I would say that the bible was written in that time and for that time, yet we see a moral to the story which is that if men would love each other then the atrocities of the Jewish leaders would not be repeated. Unfortunately, we see that those atrocities have been repeated over and over since then, and it seems to be the religion itself that causes people to be generally unloving toward those outside their religious views. The fact is that if there IS a God and he IS as the Christians say he is... Then realistically burning in eternal flames cannot be a just punishment for any imagined finite crimes we could ever commit... which is why I wholeheartedly support UR.
In short, I simply wanted to know what you found to be untenable about UR as you seem to be a very intelligent and logical person.
Are you serious? Do you think apokatastasis is taught by the Magisterium?
To answer your question: No, it most certainly is NOT.
If you believe that the Catholic Church teaches every heretical idea ever held by any of its members (including prominent ones, such as Origen and St Gregory of Nyssa--and whether the latter held it is a matter of dispute), you need to do some serious research on Catholicism 101.
Last edited by DreamingSpires; 06-29-2010 at 07:02 PM..
Reason: trying to control my temper
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