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Old 07-06-2010, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,436,179 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You've lost me. According to your beliefs: Are we believers today elect or not? Did God choose us to be saved (according to your belief)?
Yes we are Elected into His grace! The elect in the scriptures is only directed at those of Israel. Those are the remnant...like Paul, because he was one of the elect national Israelites, God converted him.
And so Romans 11:

Romans 11:4-5 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

By the first century churchs' example, we too are labeled as they were, however, in the scriptures, this elect, chosen and few, are dealing with the remnant of National Israel, and them only.

The Holy Writ was written for us, not to us.
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Old 07-06-2010, 10:41 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,436,179 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Ok sciota, those are some interesting thoughts you have, but I don't really see how it squares with scripture. I have to concur with BHfT, it is "messed up", and doesn't make sense to me.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

That is the many. EVERYONE. Because death came to all men. It reigned over all who sin. Everyone sins.

I don't see where "present tense" is referring to all dying in Adam. (1 Cor 15:22 maybe?) It is not "present tense", I'm not sure the name of the tense exactly, but I believe it has meaning of "all those who die in Adam", and Romans 5 tells us it is all men.

Your doctrine confuses me sciota.
Legoman,

Read the text.

The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.

The doers of the law shall be justified

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

I know it confuses you, as it did for me, until I opened my heart and took off the engrained eyeware that I had been wearing for so long, and asked God, to please help me undertsand these things.

He did.
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Old 07-06-2010, 10:41 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,674,381 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Yes we are Elected into His grace! The elect in the scriptures is only directed at those of Israel. Those are the remnant...like Paul, because he was one of the elect national Israelites, God converted him.
And so Romans 11:

Romans 11:4-5 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

By the first century churchs' example, we too are labeled as they were, however, in the scriptures, this elect, chosen and few, are dealing with the remnant of National Israel, and them only.

The Holy Writ was written for us, not to us.
You say WE are elected yet you say it is only directed at Israel. I agree.. However, HOW the HECK are YOU part of ISRAEL? The elect were the apostles. BEFORE 70AD... Where do you get this stuff?
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Old 07-06-2010, 10:56 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,674,381 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Legoman,

Read the text.

The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.

The doers of the law shall be justified

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

I know it confuses you, as it did for me, until I opened my heart and took off the engrained eyeware that I had been wearing for so long, and asked God, to please help me undertsand these things.

He did.
Are you under the law? Did your ancestors make a pact with God through Moses to uphold the law?

Jesus was born under the law: But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. (Gal 4:4-5) As were all those born pre 70AD while the law was still formally practiced in the temple. But you are not... you are a gentile, not a Jew... right?

But AFTER 70AD one is born under grace not the law...

For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. Romans 6:14 during the transition from old to new.

Romans 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

I don't see how you can say that you are part of Israel at all.
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:06 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,436,179 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Are you under the law?
The Law written on my heart...yes.

Quote:
Did your ancestors make a pact with God through Moses to uphold the law?
Yes.

Quote:
Jesus was born under the law: But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. (Gal 4:4-5) As were all those born pre 70AD while the law was still formally practiced in the temple. But you are not... you are a gentile, not a Jew... right?
I am not a gentile...I am a Israelite...hence marriage into one body....Israel.
Read the scriptrues again.....the resurrection of the dead completed that.

Quote:
But AFTER 70AD one is born under grace not the law...
Your asking questions that were covered in the OP...refresh yourself.

Quote:
I don't see how you can say that you are part of Israel at all.
New Jerusalem ring any bells?
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:36 PM
 
Location: Katonah, NY
21,188 posts, read 21,015,988 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Off topic, but I will answer.....It depends...do you believe Christ, God in the Flesh, saved you from certain death? Did you confess this to Him?
Well, to tell you the truth - I didn't really think it was off topic - but maybe it was not the direction you wanted to go in. However, you didn't answer my question. I asked if you thought UR's would go to hell. I already know you would think I'm going there - I wanted to know if you though UR's would be going there as well.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:30 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,674,381 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
The Law written on my heart...yes.
Yet you realize that what is written in your heart is to love God and your neighbor.. right? So you are not under THE law as Jesus was under THE law... Because the old has faded and the NEW is now.



Quote:
Yes.
So you are Jewish or Hebrew?



Quote:
I am not a gentile...I am a Israelite...hence marriage into one body....Israel.
Read the scriptrues again.....the resurrection of the dead completed that.
No there was a NEW NAME given to those under the NEW covenant. You are not an Israelite.. you are a new creature in Christ. Not quite the same thing...


Quote:
Your asking questions that were covered in the OP...refresh yourself.
So YOU think that only the chosen are born under grace but isn't it true that ALL are born under grace because grace is for the WHOLE WORLD?

We agree on most of eschatology (although I think you are still a futurist at heart) so why do you have such a hard time distinguishing between being under grace and under law?

Quote:
New Jerusalem ring any bells?
New Jerusalem is not closed by any means... but you seem to think you are one of the few residents while the rest grit their teeth outside in futility...

With man salvation is IMPOSSIBLE... for everyone.. but with God... ALL things are possible.

It is not man who is able to save themselves but God who does the saving. IF God has the means and the will to save all... why (in your opinion) doesn't he?
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Old 07-07-2010, 01:31 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,436,179 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Yet you realize that what is written in your heart is to love God and your neighbor.. right? So you are not under THE law as Jesus was under THE law... Because the old has faded and the NEW is now.
Jesus fulfilled the law, and the prophets....He didn't destroy it.
Secondly....I am going to teach you something about the New Covenant, and how it never replaced, but rather RENEWED - kainos...not neos, which denotes BRAND NEW and in INFANCY.

The covenant is the same, but ABSORBED IN CHRIST.
It has been fulfilled in Him, and I practice all of the laws, commandments and statues, when I kneel down and worship Him.

Quote:
So you are Jewish or Hebrew?
Flesh or spirit?...I gather you are talking about the flesh.

Quote:
No there was a NEW NAME given to those under the NEW covenant. You are not an Israelite.. you are a new creature in Christ. Not quite the same thing...
Again....kainos....renewed.

Quote:
So YOU think that only the chosen are born under grace but isn't it true that ALL are born under grace because grace is for the WHOLE WORLD?
Born again in the spirit under Grace. You lack much discernment.

Quote:
We agree on most of eschatology (although I think you are still a futurist at heart)
Actually you are because of UR. Not me. You have never proven that..would you like to go for a Preterist round?

Quote:
so why do you have such a hard time distinguishing between being under grace and under law?
I don't...you do.

Quote:
New Jerusalem is not closed by any means... but you seem to think you are one of the few residents while the rest grit their teeth outside in futility...
Strawman. So what if the gates are open...it doesn't say everyone comes in regardless of faith...lol.....Rev 21 deals with two types...inside and outside...and characterizes them and is clear about their destiny.

Quote:
With man salvation is IMPOSSIBLE... for everyone.. but with God... ALL things are possible.
With Christ...salvation is certain. Why do you continue to leave Christ out of the mix for your salvation?

Quote:
It is not man who is able to save themselves but God who does the saving. IF God has the means and the will to save all... why (in your opinion) doesn't he?
God saves when you bow down to Christ and submit to Him as God in the Flesh, your personal saviour....yes.
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:23 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,674,381 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Jesus fulfilled the law, and the prophets....He didn't destroy it.
Secondly....I am going to teach you something about the New Covenant, and how it never replaced, but rather RENEWED - kainos...not neos, which denotes BRAND NEW and in INFANCY.
Which makes sense ... it was NEW and in INfancy... yet it is now not in INFANCY.. is it?
Quote:
The covenant is the same, but ABSORBED IN CHRIST.
It has been fulfilled in Him, and I practice all of the laws, commandments and statues, when I kneel down and worship Him.
Great! However...
Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

But you are saying that one must CAUSE their old self to be crucified with Him even though it is stated clearly in Rev. that ALL things are made new?

At what point do you suppose someone can re-crucify Christ in order to be free from sin? Or is it that ALL MEN were made new in that instance? There was ONE event yet you want to say that it is up to the person not really what Christ did... right?


Quote:
Flesh or spirit?...I gather you are talking about the flesh.
Either way.. Israel is gone.. The NEW ISRAEL has a NEW NAME... and it isn't ET...

Quote:
Again....kainos....renewed.
YES.. renewed.. like SAUL to PAUL...

Wicked to righteous... Old man to new man.... no need to die.. this is done while living!

So why don't you understand this?

Quote:
Born again in the spirit under Grace. You lack much discernment.
From the two... Born under Law and Born under Grace.... you seem to be confused. Perhaps I can help. Those Jews born before the temple was destroyed were born under the law. Those born after the temple was destroyed were born under grace. Those in the transition from old to new were adopted into grace. It is so simple even a caveman can understand it .

Quote:
Actually you are because of UR. Not me. You have never proven that..would you like to go for a Preterist round?
I've tried to explain to you that if all of Rev. is fulfilled then there is nothing left to be done... INCLUDING resurrection. It is pretty simple but you seem to want your cake and to eat it too.... unfortunately that is "future" and therefore you are a "futurist" at heart.

Quote:
I don't...you do.
Right.... You think one chooses to be under grace when there was NO choice about being under the law.. was there? I believe they were BORN under the law... just as we are now BORN under grace.

Quote:
Strawman. So what if the gates are open...it doesn't say everyone comes in regardless of faith...lol.....Rev 21 deals with two types...inside and outside...and characterizes them and is clear about their destiny.
LOL @ strawman... It is the same concept you fail to understand everytime. Why would someone make a point to state that the gates are never closed? Wouldn't you think that would indicate traffic?



Quote:
With Christ...salvation is certain. Why do you continue to leave Christ out of the mix for your salvation?
Ummm, that was scripture:

Look it up... mark 10 it is salvation that is being discussed and Christ states with man [salvation] is impossible. IOW it is impossible for even the most pious man to be saved of his on volition... but with God it is possible.

You don't believe God saves all men but that is not what scripture says. Just because you are not willing for all men to come to God doesn't mean God is not willing!

"It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." Romans 9:16

But then you don't believe that either... do you?

Quote:
God saves when you bow down to Christ and submit to Him as God in the Flesh, your personal saviour....yes.
Yep.. I figured. You don't believe that it doesn't depend on man's desire or effort.... it is solely based on God's mercy...

You seem to think you have cornered the market on grace and mercy.. that you know who DESERVES mercy and grace but wonder of all wonders... you, of course, deserve mercy even though it is clear it is not your desire nor your effort (so much for all that law keeping) that caused your salvation.
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:50 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,436,179 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Which makes sense ... it was NEW and in INfancy... yet it is now not in INFANCY.. is it?
Renewed covenant...same covenant..renewed.
Not brand new...how hard is this?

Quote:
Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
Yes! Accept Christ and be put to death with Him. You can't spiritually die twice.....in some fairy tale lake of fire.....you are already dead unless you accept Christ as YOUR PERSONAL SAVIOUR...now..in this life.

Quote:
But you are saying that one must CAUSE their old self to be crucified with Him even though it is stated clearly in Rev. that ALL things are made new?
Rev 21 also speaks of those that are not made new.

Quote:
At what point do you suppose someone can re-crucify Christ in order to be free from sin?
Nowhere...YOU are put to death with HIM at the cross.

Quote:
Or is it that ALL MEN were made new in that instance? There was ONE event yet you want to say that it is up to the person not really what Christ did... right?
Never said that. Man cannot understand - until he first be given a new nature. 1 Cor. 2:14. Man cannot come - until he first be effectually called by the Holy Spirit. John 6:44,45. A sinner absolutely cannot come to Christ until God first does something in that sinner's nature. That "something" is what the Bible calls regeneration, or the new birth, and it is the exclusive work of God the Holy Spirit.
Man has no part whatever in regeneration.

You have a duty to return to God, but you do not have the ability. Responsibility does not imply ability!
Confession is your responsibility.

1 Corinthians 2:14-15 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

Natural man is dead and totally unreceptive to the gospel. He must first be given life before he can understand the gospel. It is not that God drags those who don't want to come. It is that God makes willing by his grace. In regeneration, God gives us spiritual life which includes a desire for him. If God gives us a desire for Christ, we will act according to that desire and we will choose Christ.

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Either way.. Israel is gone.. The NEW ISRAEL has a NEW NAME... and it isn't ET...
AHA! The New Israel....I am an ISraelite. Confirmed by the Agnostic!

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YES.. renewed.. like SAUL to PAUL...
Yes!

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Wicked to righteous... Old man to new man.... no need to die.. this is done while living!
Yes!

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So why don't you understand this?
I do...you don't.

Quote:
From the two... Born under Law and Born under Grace.... you seem to be confused. Perhaps I can help. Those Jews born before the temple was destroyed were born under the law. Those born after the temple was destroyed were born under grace. Those in the transition from old to new were adopted into grace. It is so simple even a caveman can understand it .
I understand that completely, thanks for confirming my message.
Those born under Grace are those that are regenerated in the spirit, and duly confess to Christ as Lord and Saviour. Hence...born again.

Quote:
I've tried to explain to you that if all of Rev. is fulfilled then there is nothing left to be done... INCLUDING resurrection.
Resurreciton of the dead...yes...and resurrection of Israel as a collective body judged on their works, and the marriage of the church, the wife of Christ to Christ. Yet Revelation 21 speaks of a Post Parousia world, as well as many others text that John himself confirms in his book. What you don;t accept, is that judgement in the New World exists, and eternal death exists, even when it is plainly in front of you in you Bible. You believe, that there is another...resurrection for the wicked that pay for their sins in the lake of fire, only to be resurrected again to life....

You are askew in the details of the New Heavens and Earth, the New Covenant, and the New Man/Creation. There are still blessings and curses in effect. Those never stopped.

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It is pretty simple but you seem to want your cake and to eat it too.... unfortunately that is "future" and therefore you are a "futurist" at heart.
Actually you are, as I have just shown with your faulty UR ideas.

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I believe they were BORN under the law... just as we are now BORN under grace.
Everyone is not in the covenant of grace.
Look around...or better yet...look in the mirror!

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Why would someone make a point to state that the gates are never closed?
Because they are open for those who walk by His light.

Quote:
Look it up... mark 10 it is salvation that is being discussed and Christ states with man [salvation] is impossible. IOW it is impossible for even the most pious man to be saved of his on volition... but with God it is possible.
Key phrase....WITH GOD.

Quote:
You don't believe God saves all men but that is not what scripture says. Just because you are not willing for all men to come to God doesn't mean God is not willing!
Ahhh but God so willed the Jews to be under His wing, but they weren't willing!

Quote:
"It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy." Romans 9:16

But then you don't believe that either... do you?
Yes I do. But He chooses to whom He shows that mercy to.

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

32 Because [they sought it] not by faith...


You need faith to have God's mercy.

Any more?
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