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I think perhaps you misunderstand our message in that you misunderstand WHO we are posting to when we talk about how all are saved (from death) even those who do NOT accept Christ during this lifetime that we see and perceive.
I would never tell a non believer that it does NOT MATTER if they do not accept Christ now. Accepting Christ now will bring much to your life NOW. Those that believe by faith without seeing are ESPECIALLY blessed. But those that CANNOT see the need to believe in Jesus, who don't believe there is anything outside of what we know NOW, who believe (somehow, I don't understand this faith) that we are here by accident and that there is no real plan for our lives etc, are not going to believe until God opens their eyes. The Bible says repeatedly that no one can come to the Father unless he drags them (usually translated draw to lessen the force), that we do not choose Christ but that He chooses us. etc. So whether you or us (or whomsoever) takes them the gospel message in WHATEVER form they deliver it, many will NOT believe UNTIL the Holy spirit moves upon their spirit and that is when they believe.
I can't speak for everyone here, but the reason why I defend universalism so vigorously on these boards, is more for the Christian, who like me, worried, fretted and mourned for a beloved family member or friend, or even for a neighbor, who professed faith in Buddhism, Islam, or no faith in any type of God. If they believe that they are now or sometime after 'Judgment Day' will suffer indescribable pain and suffering, it causes many to weep and be depressed and many cannot enjoy the blessings and life which the Spirit has waiting for us. This to me, is only partially good news, that I, me, myself am saved but I won't be seeing my mother, brother, aunt or uncle, best friend, etc in that happy foreverland. So we offer the hope (the reality from our perspective) that God is only workiing with a firstfruits in these ages but there is an age to come where ALL of his children will some day see who God is through Christ, will see how much He loves us by His plan of redemption. This then becomes the TOTAL good news for all who believe in the goodness and grace of God, and yet it doesn't preach some pie in the sky doctrine either that promises and winks at sin or that it doesn't matter how one lives. Besides there are many Christians in jail who have done heinous acts and many atheists/agnostics living good and moral lives all around us.
I (and probably most other UR's) just want to help change the message. From one of an OFFER of salvation, to assurance of salvation. There are special rewards for those who live by faith, who walk by the Spirit NOW. So why do you think that we encourage and pat people on the back and say, it's ok, no need to worry about believing in God. You CAN'T MAKE yourself believe in something. You might accept something as true that you have been taught all your life, but until it becomes a factor in your life you aren't really 'believing' it.
Trying to get someone to change their mind about serving one God who has one set of rules and one standard with punishment for non compliance, to serve another God with a foreign concept of rules and still punishment isn't all that much incentive. Trying to convince someone who doesn't believe there is anything beyond the visible life and death of this world will fall on deaf ears until the Holy Spirit opens their eyes and ears. But we want to lighten up the hearts of current believers to have complete hope and trust in our loving God and Father.
As far as laughing off a few hundred or thousand years of refinement for several years of riotous living? We humans hate waiting a year for our next vacation from the every day grind we go to. We anticipate every holiday. What makes ANYONE think that having to endure 1000 years under the dominion of people who you laughed at during a former age is NOTHING? That would be VERY difficult. I am not saying I know how long or what manner the refinement takes. It is most likely different for each person, depending upon their stubbornness, etc.
But as far as being FORCED to believe in God? That's crazy. Once you come before His throne, there is no point in NOT believing. We don't physically see it now so many can deny it. But once you are there, denial would be laughable. When His love hits you full force in the face and heart, I don't see how you can help but fall on your knees and realize what you had run from.
But when Thomas would not believe until he actually saw Jesus, Jesus did NOT rebuke him for his lack of faith, in fact if I recall he called Thomas blessed. But those who believe WITHOUT seeing, merely by faith, will receive special blessings.
Anyway, I've tried to say this on other threads. I believe the gospel message would at least be considered more viable when presented as God having already forgiven us through Christ. In my view, it wouldn't increase the number of converts because God has already decreed how many and who will receive the gospel in THESE ages, but I do believe it can bring more joy, more love and trust, more comfort to those who have lost people and have worried about their final disposition.
Sorry for the length. I tend to say things with too many words.
Peace and joy to all of the forum readers/posters today.
Great post ScarletWren! Peace to you and everyone else as well!
Another poster made a point that really struck me. He/She said that it appears that universalism teaches that all will be saved in time.
That is what you heard...
Quote:
It really doesn't matter whether or not you accept Jesus in the end. We'll all be in the same place. Accepting Jesus just makes the process a bit easier.
What is wrong with this statement that you are so determined to bring out? Is it Christ's act or the acceptance of that act that saves? If it is the act itself that saves then it REALLY doesn't matter if you accept it, does it? What does acceptance do to change what was already done? Does acceptance mean Christ's act is MORE or LESS powerful or effective?
Quote:
You just avoid a few 100 or 1000 years of refining by fire. And really what's a 1000 years in the light of eternity? Just a flash.
I personally don't believe in punishment after death so... I can't really address this because for me it is a strawman... I don't believe the sins of the flesh will still be punishable after the flesh is gone.
Quote:
Seems like it really doesn't matter if you trust Jesus per the UR folk. Jesus just makes the process of being with God a bit easier. Not necesary, just easier.
See what I said above... If you think Christ's act must have acceptance in order to be effective then I guess you make a good point BUT if it is the ACT itself (that cannot be changed now) that causes salvation... well then acceptance really has no bearing on the act itself does it?
For example... a woman gets mad at her husband and cuts all his clothes to pieces.... The husband doesn't believe she did that or doesn't accept it.... does that magically change the fact that his clothes are cut up?
The act was done... believing and accepting that it was done doesn't affect the act at all.
Quote:
Dang. I think I'll quit church, Jesus and God and live asccording to the flesh. No point in trusting in Jesus. I'll see y'all in Heaven.
Don't need Jesus or nothin'. I am saved regardless!
This is one of those things that gets me wondering how strong your relationship is with God. Even Paul said that we can surely sin all we want for grace will abound much more but should we?? HELL no... the consequences for sin don't magically disappear because you accept Christ's act... even believers reap what they sow. If anyone has felt the freedom in God's love they would never turn back. All things are permissable but not all things are beneficial. Even non-religious people realize that stealing is not beneficial. Sure you COULD grab your neighbor's paper ... after all it is just sitting there in his driveway. But it isn't beneficial to do so...
Quote:
Not to worry......I am just making a point.
The title of your thread is about the main error in UR... I know you are trying to make a point but what was the point again? What is the main error in UR?
That all will be saved? Who was saved by the act on the cross? A set number of people right? Not like Christ can be sacrificed over and over to let new people be saved.... so the cross must have applied to a set number of humans....
And I asked you yesterday, but you did not answer: If you choose to not accept Christ even after death, then what other options do they have?
Then why do you keep spreading the first lie you said that "UR thinks people are forced to believe after they die"?!?!?!
But in any case, to answer your question: why do you think after death anyone would choose not to accept Christ? When confronted with God's presence, every heart will melt. Scripture says they all will come to Him:
Every knee will bow, every tongue will confess that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, this will all happen to the glory of God. All will worship and praise God and glorify Him!
You just don't believe someone is accepting Christ even though scripture is clear that all will bow and confess His name willingly, and this is done to the glory of God. What's the problem?
Then why do you keep spreading the first lie you said that "UR thinks people are forced to believe after they die"?!?!?!
But in any case, to answer your question: why do you think after death anyone would choose not to accept Christ? When confronted with God's presence, every heart will melt. Scripture says they all will come to Him:
So, there is no choise. That's why I was asking.
Yes, everyone will confess like a murderer in court, but unbelievers will still be sentenced. The verse is not about salvation.
Yes, everyone will confess like a murderer in court, but you will still be sentenced. The verse is not about salvation.
Why do you say its no choice? Everyone chooses to turn to and confess to Christ. They all eventually make the same choice and they are all happy about it. God knows it will happen - God has declared it will happen.
And who said anything about a sentence? Not the scriptures that show everyone bowing and confessing to the glory of the father. I don't disagree that people will reap what they sow. But in the end all accept Christ. God has declared it.
Verna, that passage does not say that anyone will be "SEPARATE FROM GOD FOREVER"...
Be well...
Yes it does! legoman...why do you say it says something it obviously does not say?...and it's right in front of your eyes...?...so...now all means everyone living and breathing...eternal doesn't mean eternaL...and forever doesn't mean forever...everlasting does't mean everlasting...BUT NOW! DIE DOESN'T MEAN DIE!...AS IN DEAD!....I mean honestly...why don't you UR's just write your own language!?!...nothing means what it means to you all...the Bible doesn't mean anything it says according to you all...STOP IT!!!!
ISAIAH 59:2 but your iniquities have made a !!SEPARATION!! between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.
Isaiah 1:15[/color] "So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood. ]
WHEN ONE DIES IN THEIR SIN THEY ARE SEPARATED FROM GOD FOREVER! SIN DOES NOT WALK THROUGH THE GATES OF HEAVEN!!! GOD FORBID!!!
...read it again...
18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. 20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. [/color]
what it DOES say it this...
If a wicked person turn from his wicked ways, He shall surely live, and their past sins shall be remembered no more.
If the wicked turn NOT from their wicked ways, they shall surely die.
Period!
In Christ's love...prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
Last edited by june 7th; 07-15-2010 at 09:55 AM..
Reason: Please, only "mod cuts" are to use red.
Yes, it would be great if it were true and biblical, but as the poster herself says "so we offer the hope ". They offer this belief in order to comfort themselves and others.
To me it is same as a doctor not telling his patient that the patient has cancer, because it is not what he wants to hear. However, by not telling the truth he deprives his patient the only chance to live, which would be aggressive treatment.
Which would mean that knowledge is required to save people, and that salvation is not a complete work of Christ. It would require a deed on the part of the human being, but it's a gift and not earned.
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