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Old 01-18-2011, 04:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Believers who have no good works are still saved. This is true. When you are saved, you are saved with or without works. If you have works, that's great because God will reward you for them, but works are not required for salvation. However, if you are not saved through faith in Christ, no amount of works can save you come the day of judgment. Again, this test in Corinthians is to test the works of believers only, and it has nothing to do with unbelievers.
I believe you are wrong, along with most of the traditional fundamentalist world on this issue among many others, and i believe i proven it through the scriptures well enough, though you do not accept it.

That is why you do not even acknowledge that Jesus said that the "wicked servant" or Christians with no good works, will have their place with unbelievers, just like fundamentalists never do ...

 
Old 01-18-2011, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post

That is why you do not even acknowledge that Jesus said that the "wicked servant" or Christians with no good works, will have their place with unbelievers..
Can you please supply the verse(s) that support what you are saying, so the forum members can analyze it? Thank you.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 05:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Can you please supply the verse(s) that support what you are saying, so the forum members can analyze it? Thank you.
I already did in post #51 in this thread, just a couple of posts back.

The Passage is ...


Luke 42 12:46
The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,284,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I already did in post #51 in this thread, just a couple of posts back.

The Passage is ...


Luke 42 12:46
The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
apistos is unfaithful...not an unbeliever as in someone who is outside of covenant status. This parable is about the Jew, who knows of the prophecies of "His coming" and thus begins to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; I don't think your parallel of this parable is no where near close 1 Cor 3...as that is about ministers preaching a doctrinal error, as opposed to a believer losing "confidence" in His coming, and ending up committing acts of violence.
Two very different themes going on here.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 05:40 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,451 posts, read 31,853,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I already did in post #51 in this thread, just a couple of posts back.

The Passage is ...


Luke 42 12:46
The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Oh, ok that one. I don't know how I missed it. The parable does not say he is a believer, but a person chosen to be in place of authority, and he abuses his authority, and when the master returns he is taken by surprise because he did not expect the return. Imagine catholic child molesting priests for example.

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 01-18-2011 at 05:54 PM..
 
Old 01-18-2011, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Imagine catholic child molesting priests for example.
Great contemporary example of Luke 12.
 
Old 01-18-2011, 06:05 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,138 posts, read 19,958,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Oh, ok that one. I don't know how I missed it. The parable does not say he is a believer, but a person chosen to be in place of authority, and he abuses his authority, and when the master returns he is taken by surprise because he did not expect the return. Imagine catholic child molesting priests for example.
Well why would it say assign him a place with the unbelievers ?, wouldn't you think it would make more sense if he wasn't a believer to say "assign him a place with the rest of the unbelievers" ?.

Last edited by pcamps; 01-18-2011 at 06:27 PM..
 
Old 01-18-2011, 06:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
apistos is unfaithful...not an unbeliever as in someone who is outside of covenant status. This parable is about the Jew, who knows of the prophecies of "His coming" and thus begins to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; I don't think your parallel of this parable is no where near close 1 Cor 3...as that is about ministers preaching a doctrinal error, as opposed to a believer losing "confidence" in His coming, and ending up committing acts of violence.
Two very different themes going on here.

The word "apistos" is the same word found in 1 Cor 6:6, 1 Cor 14:23, and 2 Cor 6:14 ...


1 Cor 6:6
But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers(apistos)!

1 Cor 14:23
So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers(apistos) come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

2 Cor 6:14
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers(apistos). For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?


It is clear from the context of all the verses above that the word "apistos" is in reference to those who do not believe in Christ or who are not a part of the household of faith.


The parables of the wicked servants are about People who Christ has put in Control over his possessions, both the Jews before they were cast off for their hardness of heart and Christians who are the same, believing that Christ delays his coming (or deny his coming again, 2Pe 3:3-4) and imprisoning people and torturing them and burning them alive ...

The wicked servant in that parable is the same wicked servant in every one of Christs parables concerning the wicked servants, you should read up on them all.

The wicked servants are those who have already been forgiven but who do not forgive others (Mat 18:32) ... They are the Christians who do bury their talents in the earth believing Christ to be an "austere" (hard, angry) man (Mat 25:26, Luke 19:22). They are Christians who will complain when Christ pays the same amount to others who did not work as long in the field, whose eyes are evil because Christ is Good(Mat 20:15). They are the Jealous son who does not happily receive back again his younger brother "the prodigal son"(Luk3 15:11-32), and those who will say "Lord, Lord" but who themselves the lord does not know(Mat 7:22).

They are hirling shepherds(Jhn 10:12), wolves in sheep's clothing(Mat 7:15), false teachers and false apostles and false prophets
(2Pe 2:1).

They are those who believe that they are rich and in need of nothing, who are truly blind and naked and in need of "eye salve"(Rev 3:17) ...

They are those believers who have forsaken the love that they had at first(Revelation 2:4).

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-18-2011 at 07:16 PM..
 
Old 01-18-2011, 06:24 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,451 posts, read 31,853,456 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Great contemporary example of Luke 12.
It is an interesting chapter. It continues by Jesus saying the he did not come to bring peace, but division.

Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.”
 
Old 01-18-2011, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,284,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
The word "apistos" is the same word found in 1 Cor 6:6, 1 Cor 14:23, and 2 Cor 6:14 ...


1 Cor 6:6
But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers(apistos)!

1 Cor 14:23
So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers(apistos) come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?

2 Cor 6:14
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers(apistos). For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?


It is clear from the context of all the verses above that the word "apistos" is in reference to those who do not believe in Christ or who are not a part of the household of faith.
Judaizers....covenant people wearing the old garment. I never said they didn't believe or disbelieve in Christ, I said the theme was about a Jew...who knew about the coming.....

Quote:
The parables of the wicked servants are about People who Christ has put in Control over his possessions, both the Jews before they were cast off for their hardness of heart and Christians who are the same, believing Christ delays his coming and imprisoning people and torturing them and burning them alive ...
My point exactly.

Quote:
The wicked servant in that parable is the same wicked servant in every one of Christs parables concerning the wicked servants, you should read up on them all.
You should know what "wicked" is defined as in the scriptures, and it is not one outside of the law.

Quote:
The wicked servants are those who have already been forgiven but who do not forgive others (Mat 18:32) ... They are the Christians who do bury their talents in the earth believing Christ to be an "austere" (hard, angry) man (Mat 25:26, Luke 19:22). They are Christians who will complain when Christ pays the same amount to others who did not work as long in the field, whose eyes are evil because Christ is Good(Mat 20:15). They are the Jealous son who do not happily receive back again the prodigal son, and those who will say "Lord, Lord" but who themselves the lord does not know(Mat 7:22).
One cannot serve unless one knows of God.

Quote:
They are hirling shepherds(Jhn 10:12), wolves in sheep's clothing(Mat 7:15), false teachers and false apostles and false prophets
(2Pe 2:1).
Judaizers.

Quote:
They are those who believe that they are rich and in need of nothing, who are truly blind and naked and in need of "eye salve"(Rev 3:17) ...

They are those believers who have forsaken the love that they had at first(Revelation 2:4).
Judaizers.....don't you know your Biblical history?
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