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If everyone is allowed into heaven as UR supposes, then heaven would eventually become contaminated like the earth; that would be no heaven at all, as it would be more of the same.
This is the "failure hypothesis", which is a failure itself.
God tried to make earth perfect, but silly Adam & Eve screwed up God's perfect plan.
But wait it wasn't the first time. God made some perfect angels. But 1/3rd rebelled! Who saw that coming?
Third time is the charm. Everyone in heaven will be perfectly righteous. They won't rebel this time....... or will they?
Bringing UR into the picture here is irrelevant.
Come on lets get serious here. God is the one who makes people righteous. He doesn't make mistakes. Adam & Eve were not perfectly righteous. Neither was Lucifer/Satan.
So when people "enter heaven" - they are righteous. God makes them righteous. If God does this is for every single human who has ever existed - then they all will be righteous. End of story.
I don't deny the "inner demons," but again, they can take comfort in one thing - it will ULTIMATELY be okay for them in the end. So why fight the struggle to indulge in the dark side that keeps calling. Why fight to be what they can't maintain? Why wake up from the drunk drug induced slumber that numbs and masks the pain? It will ALL pass and when you wake up on the other side, a temporary course of embarrassment and shame and from there, it's an eternity of bliss.
Why wake up from the drunk drug induced slumber of carnality that is destroying you?
Because at a certain point you reach rock bottom. At a certain point only one of two things can happen:
1. you will die
2. you no longer want to stay in the drunk drug induced slumber of carnality
In some ways this is the point. We are learning to hate the carnality. At a certain point, things get so bad, that you want to change and you finally do overcome the bad, and then you no longer want to live the selfish indulgent lifestyle anymore. We see examples of this in real life. Addicts get so bad that they either die, or they have a life changing moment and now have the drive to get clean.
In fact knowing that things will be ok in the end can actually be a positive force to bring you out of that dark place. No one wants to stay living in a gutter sleeping in your own puke forever (figuratively or not).
The good news is not that you can stay in your drunk drug induced slumber forever.
The good news is that it will end sometime.
This is the "failure hypothesis", which is a failure itself.
God tried to make earth perfect, but silly Adam & Eve screwed up God's perfect plan.
But wait it wasn't the first time. God made some perfect angels. But 1/3rd rebelled! Who saw that coming?
Third time is the charm. Everyone in heaven will be perfectly righteous. They won't rebel this time....... or will they?
Bringing UR into the picture here is irrelevant.
Come on lets get serious here. God is the one who makes people righteous. He doesn't make mistakes. Adam & Eve were not perfectly righteous. Neither was Lucifer/Satan.
So when people "enter heaven" - they are righteous. God makes them righteous. If God does this is for every single human who has ever existed - then they all will be righteous. End of story.
No so-called "contamination" risk.
UR errs in its notion that each individual does not have free will to yield to God or not.
No. God isn't beating anyone up or chastising them into submission. Absolutely not.
There are no "good folks and bad folks".
We're all just people.
The way I see it, we ALL have one foot on the wide road and one foot on the narrow road. The wide road is non-love. The narrow road is love.
God is love. God is the source of all love. If it's love, it's coming from God.
When we do things in LOVE, those things are on the narrow path that leads to life. The things we do that are not in love, that are NON-LOVE, those are the things that are walking the path to destruction. Why? Because love conquers all. Love DESTROYS non-love. Love OVERCOMES it.
It's not that there are good people who are wholly on this narrow road and then there are "bad" people who are walking this path that is going to lead to neverending torture because they didn't believe the right thing. (a more ridiculous notion I couldn't come up with if I tried.)
Why will "every knee bow.." and "every tongue confess..."
It isn't that God is standing there with a big giant sword raised over his head saying "BOW TO ME... Rahhhh!!!!!!!" and then he'll pick up some folks and say "You didn't believe in me while you had the chance, you little ant! Off to the torture chamber you go!" and He's also not saying "hey dude... come on in, all that murdering and stealing and beating up your wife you did kinda sucked, oh well... come on in, put your feet up, have a piece of pie little fella. Want some ice cream too?"
I don't know why people imagine it to be one of these scenarios. Both scenarios don't make sense and are ridiculous. Would a good father stick his child in an oven? Would a good father cheer his child on as he plays in traffic?
Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess because we are all going to see the big picture. We're all going to be confronted with the ramifications of what non-love destroyed in our world. We're going to be confronted and truly see how non-love caused suffering and misery. How it trickled down in the tiniest of ways and the most profound ways. And then we are going to see the magnficence of how LOVE overcame it all. How evil doesn't overcome evil. But how good overcomes evil. How LOVE overcomes and conquers ALL NON-LOVE in the end. All knees WILL BOW when confronted with the POWER of LOVE. What is love? God.
Non-love seems strong but it isn't. Non-love is weak and impotent and always leads to destruction. It cannot win. Ever. Love will always overpower and overcome it. We see through the glass darkly now so we can't see it all come to fruition yet. But that's the way it has to be. It makes sense to me. We just have to walk through this.
I still maintain my position that if a person seeks out LOVE and does what they can to put love into this world and to love their neighbor, even if they were atheist, I see them as ironically being closer to God then those who confess to believe in God (love) yet their actions and their heart are far from it.
Just because a person professes to believe in God, doesn't mean their feet are automatically falling on that narrow path. Just because a person doesn't profess to believe in God doesn't mean their feet are automatically falling on that wide path. Labels mean nothing. It's the heart that matters. It's love that matters.
We're all pretty much in a state of ignorance.. and we're all going to be educated in exactly what we need to see. And when we see it... our knees will bow out of the sheer weight of His love. There will be joy unending for all... when all of that "crap" within us is finally gone. When the non-love within us stands next to the most powerful love, that is when you feel FIRE in your heart as the non-love is burned off. It's humbling and painful but also the best possible thing we can all go through.
We are all in this together. And I believe every unique individual is going to end up teaching us something about love's power. I really do. In some way, shape or form. And I think that perhaps we will all be "clothed" with that, some sort of glory that will reflect the Creator's love. We are all one. But we are also all unique individuals that will one day end up reflecting something beautiful of the Creator's nature. A facet of the POWER of LOVE and how it overcame in that individual. If even one of us were lost forever... it would be a great tragedy and love's light would be dimmed. If even one were lost forever.. God wouldn't be all-powerful. If even one were lost forever... it means that LOVE is NOT the most powerful thing. And I don't believe that.
Just some thoughts. Just how I currently see it.
It's hard to put this into a condensed version. This to me, is such a complex and intricate thing. But it also is very simple. And that is what makes it so difficult for me to put into words. There's too much to talk about, too many other angles to discuss but this is already too long as it is.
It may be "just your opinion" as you say, but I liked it a lot!
In particular, you said this:
"I still maintain my position that if a person seeks out LOVE and does what they can to put love into this world and to love their neighbor, even if they were atheist, I see them as ironically being closer to God then those who confess to believe in God (love) yet their actions and their heart are far from it."
Now I have said similar things, which were met with "our righteousness is filthy menstrual rags" and such.
Rags or not, I really don't care. God is Love, and he who dwells in Love dwells in God.
Want spirituality? Learn to Love. Ask God for help. Learn to see that anything that is not good, is not God's Kingdom. Period.
You can believe that Jerusalem is God's land. But if you have to kill people in order to make it holy, there's something wrong. Period.
The fruits of the Spirit are clear: love, joy, peace, longsuffering (patience), kindness, gentleness, meekness, self-control, faith.
Got Jesus? Get fruits! HIS Fruits, which no man can gainsay!
Praise God!! Let's all learn to JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY!!
Blessings sparrow! And sorry for my ranting again..
Sorry, I realized there is another part to this. I agree many people don't or won't fight to be what they can't maintain. That is why we have ruthless dictators and murderers and serial killers and such. It is their nature. But its a hypothetical to also maintain that these people have a "happy normal life" with no consequences.
The fact is obvious that many people die never knowing the possibility of what happens on the other side.
Still doesn't change the consequences, which is what I have been trying to say.
Guys I am trying very hard to keep this thread open because it is a good thread but just one word of caution... "hell"..and please remember the sticky post.
I had a thought about this thread, how "universalism" or "the reconciliation of all souls to God" could ever be considered "heresy" by the church, who is supposed to be the "bride" of Christ, the Son of the God of Love.
Why don't Christians like the idea of everyone going to heaven? What is it that bothers them? Their conscience, perhaps?
(NOTE: UR teaches that there IS in fact a judgment, NOT the popular slandering (as Paul himself experienced) that we can "sin as much as you like, you'll still be accepted)
UR doesn't tell people to sin. On the contrary, it tells people to repent and begin enjoying the New Life they have been freely given in Christ Jesus!!
Here is my thought, and I hope others partake in this reflection:
What happens to the pastor who begins to see that all will be saved?
Well, for 1, he has to come to grips with the fact that he is no better than anyone else. No more finger pointing, or judging, or telling sinners where they are going. His pride takes a lethal blow.
2, he has to take his faith to a deeper level. If everyone will be saved, then what indeed is God's judgment all about? How is God going to view me? Does what I do in this life make a difference, seeing that I am "in," and yet judged? What will my encounter with God mean to me? (Before, it was simply an "I believe God and the Bible, that's it, I'm in, period. But now, there must be some REAL soul-searching done!)
3, he starts to encourage people to do good, rather than threaten them. His desire is to "present every man perfect in Christ Jesus." Col. 1.28
Blessings,
brian
The reason Christians don't like the idea of everyone going to heaven is because such a belief is not supported by the Bible. And Jesus Christ Himself tells us this is not going to happen.
Jesus tells us in Matthew 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and (THEM) which do iniquity;
Now some may ignore the numerous verses that speak this truth. And some my push their belief of Universalism by quoting verses out of context, or inserting words that do not belong. Yet Christ teachings are very clear.
Matthew 7:21 Not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
This is Jesus Christ Himself in His own words telling us that not all people are going to heaven. I believe Him. Yet it appears to me that those who imbrace Universalism obviously do not.
Last edited by Campbell34; 03-04-2011 at 01:37 PM..
I don't deny the "inner demons," but again, they can take comfort in one thing - it will ULTIMATELY be okay for them in the end. So why fight the struggle to indulge in the dark side that keeps calling. Why fight to be what they can't maintain? Why wake up from the drunk drug induced slumber that numbs and masks the pain? It will ALL pass and when you wake up on the other side, a temporary course of embarrassment and shame and from there, it's an eternity of bliss.
I do not think it is a matter of passing gas:
"Living with the embarrassment of the stench which permeates, may be more difficult than just sitting in one’s own pew."
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Rahhhh!!!!!!!" and then he'll pick up some folks and say "You didn't believe in me while you had the chance, you little ant! Off to the torture chamber you go!" and He's also not saying "hey dude... come on in, all that murdering and stealing and beating up your wife you did kinda sucked, oh well... come on in, put your feet up, have a piece of pie little fella. Want some ice cream too?"
