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That's interesting. To me, free will is close to the top of the list of gifts God has given mankind.
When I think of “free” will, the definition of it that I have in mind is the idea, that during the act of making a choice, it is possible to not choose something that is having the strongest influence on your mind.
I maintain that is logically impossible. Thus, no "free will."
I think that the combined influence of internal preference, i.e. finally deciding what we want MOST after due deliberation, plus external persuasive considerations will CAUSE all choices to occur.
The exact same set of influences in the exact same situation (if that were even possible) would always produce the exact same choice in the exact same person at that particular point in time.
That is why it is not even possible to choose differently than we do at any given point in time. And that is why, IMO, this cannot be perceive as "free" will.
During the act of making a choice, it is not even possible to refuse to choose whatever is having the strongest combination of influences on our mind to choose. The REASONS that we choose "something" over "something else" are the CAUSES of our choice.
If we insist that our will is so "free" that it was not caused to choose, we are saying that there were no reasons that we chose what we chose.
That would mean that we had to have chosen randomly (e.g. flipping a coin), i.e. not based on any reason, or combination of reasons.
In either case, a caused choice, or a random choice, could not have been prevented. The choice that was made was the only choice that could have been made at that point in time.
That's interesting. To me, free will is close to the top of the list of gifts God has given mankind.
Free will to me is akin to a child taking baby steps while the parent is close by...ready to give a hand when the child falls or takes a dangerous turn.
Free will to me is akin to a child taking baby steps while the parent is close by...ready to give a hand when the child falls or takes a dangerous turn.
If the strongest influence (like coaching from a parent) in the mind of the baby is to get from one place to another standing up, the baby will try to take those steps. But if the strongest influence in the mind of the baby is to get there by it's usual way of crawling, that is what it will do instead.
In either case the baby's will is only "free" to do which ever mode of movement is having the strongest influence on its mind at that particular point in time.
Bob here Scott... I agree we make the choice always. But don't forget that God changes people's hearts and wills. I don't mean with a magic wand or a zap from God... but through teaching, judgment, experience, etc. God takes away the stony heart and gives a heart of flesh... and He even says in that context that He causes people to obey Him in that way... but again the people are always making choices even in that circumstance that I just described.
Hi Bob long time since we have talked, good to here from you again.
I have no problem with that understanding brother.
IMO, free will is an illusion. We can only choose what our reasonings tell us we prefer the most at any given point in time. A split-second before, or a split-second afterwards, we might have chosen differently, but at that particular point in time it was the only choice that we could have made based on the combination of reasonings that caused us to prefer that choice the most.
The idea that our choices would have no moral value if they are caused to occur is an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose in the direction of what our reasonings tell us is the choice we prefer the most at any particular point in time.
Roger when every knee bows and tongue confess is it done by compulsion or willingly?
When I think of “free” will, the definition of it that I have in mind is the idea, that during the act of making a choice, it is possible to not choose something that is having the strongest influence on your mind.
I maintain that is logically impossible. Thus, no "free will."
I think that the combined influence of internal preference, i.e. finally deciding what we want MOST after due deliberation, plus external persuasive considerations will CAUSE all choices to occur.
The exact same set of influences in the exact same situation (if that were even possible) would always produce the exact same choice in the exact same person at that particular point in time.
That is why it is not even possible to choose differently than we do at any given point in time. And that is why, IMO, this cannot be perceive as "free" will.
During the act of making a choice, it is not even possible to refuse to choose whatever is having the strongest combination of influences on our mind to choose. The REASONS that we choose "something" over "something else" are the CAUSES of our choice.
If we insist that our will is so "free" that it was not caused to choose, we are saying that there were no reasons that we chose what we chose.
That would mean that we had to have chosen randomly (e.g. flipping a coin), i.e. not based on any reason, or combination of reasons.
In either case, a caused choice, or a random choice, could not have been prevented. The choice that was made was the only choice that could have been made at that point in time.
Anyway, that it how I see it.
Ok God voice says don't eat from the tree, the serpents voice say eat from the tree. Gods voice gives the strongest reason, so why did Adam eat from the tree?
Roger when every knee bows and tongue confess is it done by compulsion or willingly?
By overcoming love
If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
Love your enemies, why ? because it overcomes them.
While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.
And Saul was there, giving approval to his death.As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him.He fell to the ground .
.
Saul saw that overcoming Love in Stephen when he heard him utter the words "Lord do not hold this sin against them", the rest his history.
Always enjoy your posts pneuma.
Just to add that i believe God's love is overwhelming,it's brought me to my knees many a time in repentance.
Last edited by pcamps; 07-30-2011 at 09:03 AM..
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My definition of "free"
The "free" will of the baby
