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Ok God voice says don't eat from the tree, the serpents voice say eat from the tree. Gods voice gives the strongest reason, so why did Adam eat from the tree?
I'm just making observations here... no deep conclusions...
For Eve I think the answer to your question is given in Genesis 3:6
1. She saw that the fruit was good for food
2. Pleasant to the eyes
3. Desired to make one wise
In truth God's reason was the stronger, but to Eve's mind the serpent's reasoning seemed stronger.
Eve chose to let those desires to overpower God's command... but Eve did not choose any of the following things:
- she did not choose for the fruit to be good for food
- she did not choose to be someone who desires food
- she did not choose for the fruit to seem pleasant to her eye
- she did not choose to be someone who desires pleasant things
- she did not choose for the fruit to give wisdom
- she did not choose to be someone desires wisdom
I'm saying we don't choose to desire food, pleasant things, wisdom... those are innate. But Eve did choose to allow those innate desires to overpower her willingness to obey God's command.
Whether Eve could have summoned the strength to obey in spite of those innate pressures I think is where you Scott will say yes, but others will say no. But from my understanding... you probably could agree with everything else above.
Roger when every knee bows and tongue confess is it done by compulsion or willingly?
I would say both.
When my 6-year old daughter falls off her bike, scrapes her knee, looks at me with tears streaming down her face, and I run over to comfort her, is that done by compulsion or willingly? Both. There is no way I could not run over to comfort her - I am compulsed (if that is even a word! lol) to do it. And I do it willingly.
Ok God's voice says don't eat from the tree, the serpents voice says eat from the tree. God's voice gives the strongest reason, so why did Adam eat from the tree?
Because the fall was God's idea.
IMO It was not even possible for Adam to not eat from the tree.
God made sure that Adam would eat from the tree by allowing the voice of the serpent to be the strongest influence in his life because God wanted a foil of contrast with which He could manifest and magnify and glorify the many facets of His character throughout all creation.
Through the interplay of good and evil God will eventually achieve more glorious goals for everyone than ever could have been achieved had God not let the serpent be the strongest influence on Adam.
I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.
I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.
That includes both the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.
When my 6-year old daughter falls off her bike, scrapes her knee, looks at me with tears streaming down her face, and I run over to comfort her, is that done by compulsion or willingly? Both. There is no way I could not run over to comfort her - I am compulsed (if that is even a word! lol) to do it. And I do it willingly.
I agree with you legoman and I am glad you are on this thread.
Your writings on the fallacy of "free" will, have been a blessing to me on other threads on this forum.
When my 6-year old daughter falls off her bike, scrapes her knee, looks at me with tears streaming down her face, and I run over to comfort her, is that done by compulsion or willingly? Both. There is no way I could not run over to comfort her - I am compulsed (if that is even a word! lol) to do it. And I do it willingly.
It is NEVER God's idea for people to disobey Him. That's a lie from Satan.
I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE GOLDEN RULE, and choosing Jesus Christ.
I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.
Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.
I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn will, and He will not fail to do so. Not only that but He will make sure that it will be better for everyone that everything happened the way that it did, far better than if sin had not entered the scene in the first place.
When I think of “free” will, the definition of it that I have in mind is the idea, that during the act of making a choice, it is possible to not choose something that is having the strongest influence on your mind.
I maintain that is logically impossible. Thus, no "free will."
I think that the combined influence of internal preference, i.e. finally deciding what we want MOST after due deliberation, plus external persuasive considerations will CAUSE all choices to occur.
The exact same set of influences in the exact same situation (if that were even possible) would always produce the exact same choice in the exact same person at that particular point in time.
That is why it is not even possible to choose differently than we do at any given point in time. And that is why, IMO, this cannot be perceive as "free" will.
During the act of making a choice, it is not even possible to refuse to choose whatever is having the strongest combination of influences on our mind to choose. The REASONS that we choose "something" over "something else" are the CAUSES of our choice.
If we insist that our will is so "free" that it was not caused to choose, we are saying that there were no reasons that we chose what we chose.
That would mean that we had to have chosen randomly (e.g. flipping a coin), i.e. not based on any reason, or combination of reasons.
In either case, a caused choice, or a random choice, could not have been prevented. The choice that was made was the only choice that could have been made at that point in time.
Anyway, that it how I see it.
I understand what you're saying, rodger, and what you're saying makes sense. My perspective, on the other hand, also makes sense (at least to me and to a lot of other people ). If we have no free will, there is literally no such thing as obedience. Christ stressed obedience to His Father's commandments throughout His ministry. There would have been no point to His doing so if we did not have the ability to choose for ourselves. To me it's a matter of living in such a way that the Holy Ghost will be able to have a stronger influence on us than will the adversary. Yes, if the Holy Ghost has the stronger influence on us, we will in fact choose righteousness over wickedness. But it is up to us to live in such a way that He will be able to be a constant companion to us. Otherwise, wickedness would have the edge. We have to have the desire to be obedient. Without that desire, it's not going to happen. With that desire, it will.
I understand what you're saying, rodger, and what you're saying makes sense. My perspective, on the other hand, also makes sense (at least to me and to a lot of other people ). If we have no free will, there is literally no such thing as obedience. Christ stressed obedience to His Father's commandments throughout His ministry. There would have been no point to His doing so if we did not have the ability to choose for ourselves. To me it's a matter of living in such a way that the Holy Ghost will be able to have a stronger influence on us than will the adversary. Yes, if the Holy Ghost has the stronger influence on us, we will in fact choose righteousness over wickedness. But it is up to us to live in such a way that He will be able to be a constant companion to us. Otherwise, wickedness would have the edge. We have to have the desire to be obedient. Without that desire, it's not going to happen. With that desire, it will.
Hi Kat, I believe we will have as much desire as God wants us to have at any point in time in our life.
IMO, THERE IS NO “CHANCE” THAT WE CAN CHOOSE ANYTHING ELSE BUT WHAT WE DO CHOOSE. Our choices are not made because we had a “chance” to make, or not to make them.
I think of myself as a theistic fatalist. I believe that everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist, or prevent it from happening.
Theologically this is called God’s decretive will, or that which MUST occur.
The kind of fatalism that I reject is the kind that says that things happen no matter what we do.
The truth is that things happen because of what we do, even though what we choose to do is what we want to choose the MOST at any given point in time.
A few seconds before, we might not have wanted it the MOST.
A few seconds later, we might not have wanted it the MOST.
It may even be true that most of the time we would have wanted to choose something else the MOST.
But at that point in time when we actually make a choice, it's because we want it the MOST, and, at that point in time there is no “chance” that we could have chosen anything else.
As a theistic fatalist I believe that nothing happens by “chance” and that God intends to eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better for everyone that it occurred. Then when the existence of evil and suffering has served God’s purpose, He will eradicate both of them from existence.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL by A.P. Adams is really good on this subject! evil.html
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The fall was god's idea
God's "decretive" and "preceptive" will
