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Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
So many forget to understand why Paul had to clarify the context here by saying 'pertaining to the flesh". So the works here are those works pertaining to the FLESH that cannot justify us.
BUT, Works are indeed required... Let's ALSO look what Paul says:
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds (WORKS):
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Paul is telling us right there that God will give Eternal Life and immortality according to WORKS! How amazing.
So what does this mean? - We have Paul telling us that works cannot save us and then telling us works are the basis of salvation. So HOW DO WE RECONCILE this? - EASY - The works that ARE required are not those of ourselves - (THOSE THAT PERTAIN TO THE FLESH). So which works are we to do? - HIS works (the works of Jesus Christ) which are NOT pertaining to the flesh. So if we be saved then it can't be of our works but His Works.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Now if Faith is made PERFECT BY works, then ask yourself can IMPERFECT FAITH save you?
Let's go further:
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
So if Faith without works is Dead, then can anyone claim to be saved by DEAD FAITH?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
So to BELIEVE is to DO the WORKS of Jesus Christ. That is the BELIEF that saves you.
AMEN AND DOUBLE AMEN!
I have said repeatedly that people do not understand (or refuse to admit) that you cannot lump "works" into one category. There are many kinds of works: works of the law, charitable works, etc. When Paul says "not of works" he certainly is not including works ordained of God. If that were the case, faith itself wouldn't save because it is a work. Repentance would be thrown out the window because that is a work ordained by God. These works were prepared for us in advance.
We have been given numerous examples of people who were saved/justified/forgiven who showed their faith by obedience, or by manifesting it in some way BEFORE salvation.
Faith that is alone is dead faith. It doesn't matter whether it is before initial salvation or in our christian walk. It is impossible to have a faith that is pleasing to God that is not active in some way.
Thank you for your great post.
When Paul says, "8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
[quote=Mike555;21278603]Works are not required for eternal salvation. Paul is not contradicting himself in Romans 2:6-7. Paul has continually stressed that salvation is through faith, and not by works.
Of course Paul is not contradicting himself or James. You are the one who is misunderstanding because you have lumped everything in the word "works." You are not rightly dividing the word of truth.
What about the works of God, those works ordained by God? Faith is a work ordained by God. Do you really think Paul includes the works of God when he says in Ephesians 2:8-9 "apart from works?" God ordained many works for man: faith, repentance, confessing Jesus is Lord before men, immersion, love of God and neighbor, prayer, etc.
I found this list, which someone put together, and I posted it on the other 'works' thread, but I'll post it here too:
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” -Ephesians 2:8,9
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one." Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith." Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified." Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly. Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith." Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. 9Not by works, lest any man should boast." Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
Does "not of works" include works ordained by God such as faith, repentance, confessing Jesus is Lord, immersion, love of God and neighbor?
This too was already addressed in the original post. Please make an effort to read and understand it.
I read and reread the OP, and you did not address this question from Trettep. I, for one, would like to have you answer it. Can a dead faith save anyone?
Does "not of works" include works ordained by God such as faith, repentance, confessing Jesus is Lord, immersion, love of God and neighbor?Katie
We already discussed this when we talked about the man on the cross who was saved by Jesus just before his death. Obviously he never performed any works, but you claim he did his works in form of having faith and confession of sins, and if we agree those things are considered "works" then so be it. If having faith is considered 'works' then I suppose you can argue that 'works' is necessary, but wouldn't it be clearer to just say that having faith is necessary? Basically you are saying that having faith is sufficient, because it is counted as works.
"By your words you'll be forgiven or by your words you'll be condemned".
Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on, let them find rest from their labors, for their works accompany them”.
I am the good shepherd, I know my sheep and my sheep know me,
just as the Lord knows me and I know my Father; To these sheep I will give my life..
I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd.
This is why Jesus loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again.
No one takes it from me, I lay it down freely. I have power to lay it down, and power to take it up again. This command I have received from my Father." The works I do in my Father's name testify to me.
But you do not believe, because you are not among my sheep.
My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Lord's hand.The Lord and I are one.
Those are the words of the Lord who sent me. He said As the Father sent me that's how I send you. So I follow His example and do and say what He did.
I am the resurrection and the life.
The Lord has anointed me with His spirit . He has sent me to bring glad tidings to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to captives and give sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, and to proclaim a year of favor from the Lord.
All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
I am the first and I am the last the one who lives once I died but now I live forever and ever.
The Lord redeems the life of his servants; none of those who take refuge in him incurs guilt.
The upright will dwell in the land, the honest will remain in it.
The only "work" that God requires is to believe. John 6:29
But Jesus also says: Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. (See Mark 16:16)
So baptism is neccessary (John 3:5) but not absolutly neccessary ( Mark 16:16 and John 6:29)
Something is either necessary or it isn't. Water baptism in no way has anything to do with obtaining eternal salvation. Nothing, absolutely nothing is added to simple faith for salvation. Absolutely no one in the New Testament was baptized in water until they were first saved through faith in Christ.
The only command that a person must obey to be saved is the command to believe in Jesus Christ.
Being born of water has nothing to do with water baptism. Nor does it have anything to do with physical birth. In John 3:5, Jesus was talking to a Pharisee. To a Pharisee water had three different spiritual connotations. When Jesus gave the gospel to someone, He spoke to them in a way that they would understand.
1) Now, to a Pharisee water could mean salvation as in Isaiah 55:1 ''HO! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.
2) Water could also refer to the water of the word as in Eph 5:26 'that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word.'
3) And finally, water could refer to the water of the Holy Spirit as in John 7:38. ''He who believes in Me, as the Scriptures said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.' '' 39] But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Now in John 3:5, the water of which Jesus spoke refers to the gospel message - the word.
Man is saved by responding to the gospel message by placing his faith alone in Christ alone. The Holy Spirit in His ministry of common grace makes the gospel message understandable to the spiritually dead unbeliever has he hears the gospel message. If the unbeliever responds to the gospel by placing his faith in Christ, then the Holy Spirit in His ministry of efficacious grace carries that faith to the point of salvation. He makes that faith effective for salvation.
Concerning Mark 16:16, if you take that to mean that Jesus meant that being baptized in water was necessary for eternal salvation, then you would also have to say that Jesus contradicted Himself because in other passages He made it clear that the only condition for salvation is to believe in Him.
Some examples are John 3:16, John 3:18, John 5:24, John 12:44, John 20:31, 1 John 5:13,
If you will refer back to the original post you will see John 6:28-29 where Jesus stated that there was only one work of God by which man must be saved. That was the non-meritorious work of believing in Him.
You must compare any verse which seems to say something with other verses which speak to the same subject. In other words, to understand what any particular verse is teaching or not teaching, you must filter it through what the rest of the Bible teaches on the subject at hand.
The Bible is absolutely clear that no meritorious work has any part in obtaining eternal salvation. And Jesus said that the only work of God, a non-meritorious work, is to believe in Him. Believing means believing. It does not mean believing and doing anything else. It simply means believing.
In the light of all the other passages which clearly state that eternal salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone, Mark 16:16 cannot be used to either prove or disprove that water baptism is necessary for salvation. If water baptism were necessary, then Jesus would have been remiss in not mentioning it every time He spoke of the issue of salvation.
A point to be made is the following statement...
Excerpt:
If baptism is required for salvation, it means no one can be saved without a third party being present. In other words, if baptism is required for salvation, someone must baptize a person before he can be saved. This effectively limits who can be saved and when he can be saved. It means that someone who believes in and trusts in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, but does not have the chance of being baptized, cannot be saved. The consequences of this doctrine, when carried to its logical conclusion, are devastating. A soldier who believes but is killed in battle before he can be baptized would perish, etc.
Jesus desired that those who believed in Him be baptized in water as a public statement of their faith in Him. But it is in no way a requirement for salvation.
I'll just close by saying when I came into knowing the truth, I felt something going on in my body in a spiritual sense. It's hard to describe, but I do think this was the seal of the spirit.
This was prior to any works good or bad of any kind. It was prior to reading/hearing the word (the first thing I did was grab a Bible). Was I saved then? I think so by looking at scripture. I sure would like to think so.
I'll just say when I do stumble I feel like I've betrayed my father in Christ. It is absolutely a heart wrenching experience. God is the potter and the true born-again believer is the clay. We will respond to correction. We want to hear the word and do it.
Now could my heart be hardened and I fall away? Looking at the parable of the sowers it sure looks like this does happen. Are all saved in the parable of the sowers? It's a tough thing to understand. We just need to put our faith, trust, and love in Christ with a repentant heart knowing his will is to conform to the image of his Christ. God is merciful and I'm going with that. Live to produce fruit and look at sin/transgression as a shameful thing and I think we can't go wrong.
Acts 17:11 ... let the holy spirit be the teacher.
"14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
I already addressed in the original post what James meant concerning faith and works. That was the major reason for this thread.
Quote:
Matthew 7
"22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
1 John 3:18
"18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth."
Jesus says those who hear and do what he says builds their house on a rock while those who hear and don't do will have their house washed away in the upcoming storm.
Jesus says he's the cornerstone the builders rejected and the foundation to build upon. It sure doesn't sound like those that built their house on the sand are building upon his cornerstone rock. Are they saved?
If one is saved, they are a creation unto good works. Salvation is not dependent upon good works (eg thief on cross), but those who are saved will produce good works. Jesus says you will be able to identify his sheep by their fruits. I think this speaks volumes.
Acts 17:11... I think it's what it says. I sure want to build my house on the rock. Anyone that doesn't look to be is one I am concerned for because I think the storm is coming. God saves by grace through faith. If one believes living in faith and hope, they will do what God says. God's justifies based on what Christ did not anything we can do. Because in Christ we are justified, we are a new creation unto good works.
One can make a good case that those professing Christians that don't have a change in their lifestyle to conform to the image of Christ have not been sealed by the Holy Spirit. I know a few that I'm praying for right now. While they say they have found God in Christ, I see Satan tearing apart the family. I see no evidence of salvation, and I told them I was concerned about it.
Matthew 7:16 in speaking of 'knowing them by their fruits' is misunderstood by many. Jesus was speaking of false prophets who humanly speaking seemed to be good, but Jesus made it clear that they were not good, because they were leading people astray. They were false prophets. He said that even if they were prophesizing in His name, or casting out demons, or performing many miracles, they would be denyed entrance into the kingdom because Jesus did not know them. He did not have a personal relationship with them. They did not do the will of the Father. The will of the Father is that you believe in Christ (John 6:29).
Whether a person is a true believer or merely a professing believer is known to God. A believers deeds will show his faith to others, but the lack of deeds does not necessarily mean that he isn't saved. A believer can progress to the point of spiritual maturity and then start neglecting his spiritual life and retrogress. He can even begin to live in such a way that you would never know that he was once spiritually mature, or even that he was a believer.
If a person claims to be a believer, the only way you can see his faith is through his works. But again, the lack of good works does not necessarily mean that he is not a believer.
The nature of a believers works, or the lack of works will determine his eternal rewards at the judgment seat of Christ. Even if he has no works, he is still saved, but he will have no rewards (1 Cor 3:12-15; 2 Cor 5:10; Rom 14:10-12).
You cannot use the present state of a believers spiritual life to determine for sure whether or not he is saved. Believers can do bad things, and unbelievers can, humanly speaking, do good things.
If a believer is growing spiritually, he will manifest good works. But if he is stagnating spiritually you may well mistake him for an unbeliever.
Mike, this exact topic is currently being discussed on Bible Examples of Faith Alone. I wondered why you didn't participate. Not that it matters because I can discuss it here just as easily.
Faith Alone = Dead Faith
Numerous Biblical examples have been provided which show people manifesting their faith in some way BEFORE they were saved. If what you have written is true, then you should be able to provide one example of someone being saved by faith alone.
It is impossible to have faith that doesn't show itself either by obedience or in some other way, depending on the context.
I am not expecting you to respond to my posts. You have made it very clear that you don't wish to debate me. You have that right, but do not expect me to not post on this thread.
Katie
[quote=katiemygirl;21288671]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Works are not required for eternal salvation. Paul is not contradicting himself in Romans 2:6-7. Paul has continually stressed that salvation is through faith, and not by works.
Of course Paul is not contradicting himself or James. You are the one who is misunderstanding because you have lumped everything in the word "works." You are not rightly dividing the word of truth.
What about the works of God, those works ordained by God? Faith is a work ordained by God. Do you really think Paul includes the works of God when he says in Ephesians 2:8-9 "apart from works?" God ordained many works for man: faith, repentance, confessing Jesus is Lord before men, immersion, love of God and neighbor, prayer, etc.
Katie
Both the matter of what James meant by dead faith, and the matter of the work (singular) of God as opposed to meritorious works has already been addressed in the original post. If you had read with comprehension, you would have known that.
Meritorius works have no place in salvation. And Jesus made it clear that the only work of God for eternal salvation is to believe in Christ. Believe means believe. Nothing is added to believing.
Everyone is saved by faith alone. The thief on the cross next to Jesus was saved the moment he in his thoughts came to realize that Christ was the Messiah and that he wanted a relationship with him. He was saved before He even voiced his desire to Jesus that He remember him.
You have now moved from saying that not only water baptism is required for eternal salvation, but that you have to do other works which you want to claim are works of God, in order to be saved.
Legalism is the enemy of grace. Eternal salvation is by grace, through faith alone in Christ alone. The whole of the New Testament teaches that salvation is a matter of simple faith in Christ.
The belief that you must obey the commandments of Jesus to be saved, is Lordship salvation and is a heresy. Obeying the commandments of Christ has to do with the spiritual life after salvation. It has nothing to do with obtaining eternal life.
Those who add works to faith alone in Christ alone for eternal salvation are attempting to earn salvation and are therefore not even saved.
It is an absolute statement of truth based on the word of God, that a person can only be saved in one way. Though faith alone in Christ alone.
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