Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
There are posters on here who claim they don't practice willful sin. I never understood the difference but in reading a couple posts here I think I finally understand.
The bible says anyone who claims to be without sin is a liar. But to claim to be a sinner but never to willfully sin is truthful. (At least in the minds of those who claim this... ) So it really has nothing to do with any sinful act itself, but rather its about not being a liar but saying you are sinless in a way to admit sin and deny it at the same time.
Kinda deceptive IMO.
Did I get it right?
I think what hey were talking about was the sin of unbelief and apostacy...Because it renders a comparison by referencing the account in the widerness where Hawyaw stated 'because of their unbelief they shall never enter My Rest'...the willfull sin of willfuly turning back to the Law...
Enlighten me... I can't think of a sin that isn't willful or premeditated.
According to the bible:
You must be a sinner.. Otherwise you are a liar.
You cannot enter heaven as a sinner, so you claim you don't willfully sin.
What other explanation is there???
Jeshua paid the price for sin...If we are covered in the blood of Jeshua then Hawyaw does not see our sins, so in a sense, we do not...Another point to consider is willful sin may be referring to doing it without conscience as the old nature does...As the nature, we sin, but are convicted of it and feel guilty for it and try not to do it again...The old nature feels no guilt...No remorse...No conviction...Just as there are levles of Faith, there are also levels of unbelief...Levels of sin...Not everyone is as evil as they could be, and not everyone is as good as they should be...
I'm sorry, but the three of us do not have beliefs that are like-minded. The two of you don't believe the written word of God when you read it...instead you get angry, and snarl, and spit when I post specific scripture that says specific things said by God through the Holy Spirit...in Truth...and you reject them when they're right there in front of you....you twist them or just absolutely ignore them when presented to you...and instead, you say something totally contrary to His word....so some people's are deceived somewhere...and I'm not one of them.
Let me ask you both this question...(lovesMountains, I have already asked you this, and your answer confirmed that you do not believe in God's Holy Word...you believe instead, in lovesMountains misguided, worldly, misinterpretation of God's Holy Word....but maybe you've thought about it and feel differently now)...
Q. Can one who is born of God continue to commit willfull sin and still receive eternal life?
Rom 7:1 Or are you ignorant, brothers, (for I speak to those knowing Law), that the Law lords it over the man for as long a time as he lives?
Rom 7:2 For the married woman was bound by Law to the living husband; but if the husband dies, she is set free from the Law of the husband.
Rom 7:3 So then, if the husband is living, she will be called an adulteress if she becomes another man's. But if the husband dies, she is free from the Law, so as for her not to be an adulteress by becoming another man's.
Rom 7:4 So that, my brothers, you also were made dead to the Law through the body of Christ, for you to become Another's, to the One raised from the dead, so that we may bear fruit to God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sin were working in our members through the Law for the bearing of fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we have been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so as for us to serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? Let it not be! But I did not know sin except through Law; for also I did not know lust except the Law said, "You shall not lust." Ex. 20:17
Rom 7:8 But sin taking occasion through the commandment worked every lust in me; for apart from Law, sin is dead.
Rom 7:9 And I was alive apart from Law once, but the commandment came, and sin came alive, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment which was to life, this was found to be death to me;
Rom 7:11 for sin taking occasion through the commandment deceived me, and through it killed me.
Rom 7:12 So indeed the Law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
Rom 7:13 Then that which is good, has it become death to me? Let it not be! But sin, that it might appear to be sin, having worked out death to me through the good, in order that sin might become excessively sinful through the commandment.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, having been sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For what I work out, I do not know. For what I do not will, this I do. But what I hate, this I do.
Rom 7:16 But if I do what I do not will, I agree with the Law, that it is good.
Rom 7:17 But now I no longer work it out, but the sin dwelling in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwells no good. For to will is present to me, but to work out the good I do not find.
Rom 7:19 For what good I desire, I do not do. But the evil I do not desire, this I do.
Rom 7:20 But if I do what I do not desire, it is no longer I working it out, but the sin dwelling in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then the law, when I desire to do the right, that evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;
Rom 7:23 but I see another law in my members having warred against the law of my mind, and taking me captive by the law of sin being in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then I myself with the mind truly serve the Law of God, and with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to flesh, but according to Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set me free from the law of sin and of death.
Rom 8:3 For the Law being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 so that the righteous demand of the Law might be fulfilled in us, those not walking according to flesh, but according to Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For the ones that are according to flesh mind the things of the flesh. And the ones according to Spirit mind the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;
Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards God; for it is not being subjected to the Law of God, for neither can it be.
Rom 8:8 And those being in the flesh are not able to please God.
Rom 8:9 But you are not in flesh, but in Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, this one is not His.
Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, the body indeed is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,081,790 times
Reputation: 11862
Kind of a grey area. Take the sin of fornication. On one hand you believe/know it's wrong/a sin, but your carnal desires are so strong...your desires are pulling you towards sinning, so it's not entirely wilful...you don't WANT to do it just to go against the Lord, so it's not totally willful sinning for the sake of it, but there's a point where you say 'screw it, I'll just do it anyway' (no pun intended lol). At one point does it become 'willful'? It has a lot to do with the notion of free-will.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
24,544 posts, read 56,081,790 times
Reputation: 11862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
No.
I grew up hearing that 'whatever sin you commit, God will forgive you.' But obviously, there's a point where too much is too much. What is that point? Where the 'sinful nature' seems to have control over you more than the Holy Spirit? Does this indicate you aren't really saved? What if one is just really weak-willed?
Q. Can one who is born of God continue to commit willfull sin and still receive eternal life?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Yes...Paul said it of himslef in Romans...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry
show me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:1 Or are you ignorant, brothers, (for I speak to those knowing Law), that the Law lords it over the man for as long a time as he lives?
...The apostle continues the comparison between the former and the present state of a believer, and at the same time endeavours to wean the Jewish believers from their fondness for the Mosaic law (NOT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS). The law is here spoken of, by a common figure, as a person, to which, as to an husband, life and death are ascribed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:2 For the married woman was bound by Law to the living husband; but if the husband dies, she is set free from the Law of the husband.
...She is freed from the law of her husband - From that law which gave him a peculiar property in her.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:3 So then, if the husband is living, she will be called an adulteress if she becomes another man's. But if the husband dies, she is free from the Law, so as for her not to be an adulteress by becoming another man's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:4 So that, my brothers, you also were made dead to the Law through the body of Christ, for you to become Another's, to the One raised from the dead, so that we may bear fruit to God.
...Thus ye also - Are now as free from the Mosaic law (NOT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS) as an husband is, when his wife is dead. By the body of Christ - Offered up; that is, by the merits of his death, that law expiring with him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the passions of sin were working in our members through the Law for the bearing of fruit unto death.
...When ye were in the flesh - Carnally minded, in a state of nature; before we believed in Christ. Our sins which were by the law - Accidentally occasioned, or irritated thereby. Wrought in our members - Spread themselves all over the whole man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:6 But now we have been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so as for us to serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter.
...Being dead to that whereby we were held - To our old husband, the law. That we might serve in newness of spirit - In a new, spiritual manner. And not in the oldness of the letter - Not in a bare literal, external way, as we did before
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? Let it not be! But I did not know sin except through Law; for also I did not know lust except the Law said, "You shall not lust." Ex. 20:17
... What shall we say then - This is a kind of a digression, to the beginning of the next chapter , wherein the apostle, in order to show in the most lively manner the weakness and inefficacy of the law, changes the person and speaks as of himself, concerning the misery of one under the law. This St. Paul frequently does, when he is not speaking of his own person, but only assuming another character, Rom 3:5, 1Cor 10:30, 1Cor 4:6. The character here assumed is that of a man, first ignorant of the law, then under it and sincerely, but ineffectually, striving to serve God. To have spoken this of himself, or any true believer, would have been foreign to the whole scope of his discourse; nay, utterly contrary thereto, as well as to what is expressly asserted, Rom 8:2. Is the law sin - Sinful in itself, or a promoter of sin. I had not known lust - That is, evil desire. I had not known it to be a sin; nay, perhaps I should not have known that any such desire was in me: it did not appear, till it was stirred up by the prohibition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:8 But sin taking occasion through the commandment worked every lust in me; for apart from Law, sin is dead.
...But sin - My inbred corruption. Taking occasion by the commandment - Forbidding, but not subduing it, was only fretted, and wrought in me so much the more all manner of evil desire. For while I was without the knowledge of the law, sin was dead - Neither so apparent, nor so active; nor was I under the least apprehensions of any danger from it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:9 And I was alive apart from Law once, but the commandment came, and sin came alive, and I died.
...And I was once alive without the law - Without the close application of it. I had much life, wisdom, virtue, strength: so I thought. But when the commandment - That is, the law, a part put for the whole; but this expression particularly intimates its compulsive force, which restrains, enjoins, urges, forbids, threatens. Came - In its spiritual meaning, to my heart, with the power of God. Sin revived, and I died - My inbred sin took fire, and all my virtue and strength died away; and I then saw myself to be dead in sin, and liable to death eternal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:10 And the commandment which was to life, this was found to be death to me;
...The commandment which was intended for life - Doubtless it was originally intended by God as a grand means of preserving and increasing spiritual life, and leading to life everlasting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:11 for sin taking occasion through the commandment deceived me, and through it killed me.
...Deceived me - While I expected life by the law, sin came upon me unawares and slew all my hopes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:12 So indeed the Law (THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT - THE TEN COMMANDMENTS) is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
...The commandment - That is, every branch of the law (THE TEN COMMANDMENTS). Is holy, and just, and good - It springs from, and partakes of, the holy nature of God; it is every way just and right in itself; it is designed wholly for the good of man.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:13 Then that which is good, has it become death to me? Let it not be! But sin, that it might appear to be sin, having worked out death to me through the good, in order that sin might become excessively sinful through the commandment.
...Was then that which is good made the cause of evil to me; yea, of death, which is the greatest of evil? Not so. But it was sin, which was made death to me, inasmuch as it wrought death in me even by that which is good - By the good law. So that sin by the commandment became exceeding sinful - The consequence of which was, that inbred sin, thus driving furiously in spite of the commandment, became exceeding sinful; the guilt thereof being greatly aggravated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, having been sold under sin.
...I am carnal - St. Paul, having compared together the past and present state of believers, that in the flesh, Rom 7:5, and that in the spirit, Rom 7:6, in answering two objections, (Is then the law sin? Rom 7:7, and, Is the law death? Rom 7:13,) interweaves the whole process of a man reasoning, groaning, striving, and escaping from the legal to the evangelical state. This he does from Rom 7:7, to the end of this chapter . Sold under sin - Totally enslaved; slaves bought with money were absolutely at their master's disposal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:15 For what I work out, I do not know. For what I do not will, this I do. But what I hate, this I do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:16 But if I do what I do not will, I agree with the Law, that it is good.
...It is good - This single word implies all the three that were used before, Rom 7:12, holy, just, and good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:17 But now I no longer work it out, but the sin dwelling in me.
...It is no more I that can properly be said to do it, but rather sin that dwelleth in me - That makes, as it were, another person, and tyrannizes over me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwells no good. For to will is present to me, but to work out the good I do not find.
...In my flesh - The flesh here signifies the whole man as he is by nature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:19 For what good I desire, I do not do. But the evil I do not desire, this I do.
Rom 7:20 But if I do what I do not desire, it is no longer I working it out, but the sin dwelling in me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:21 I find then the law, when I desire to do the right, that evil is present with me.
...I find then a law - An inward constraining power, flowing from the dictate of corrupt nature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;
...For I delight in the law of God - This is more than I consent to, Rom 7:16. The day of liberty draws near. The inward man - Called the mind, Rom 7:23,25.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:23 but I see another law in my members having warred against the law of my mind, and taking me captive by the law of sin being in my members.
...But I see another law in my members - Another inward constraining power of evil inclinations and bodily appetites. Warring against the law of my mind - The dictate of my mind, which delights in the law of God. And captivating me - In spite of all my resistance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
...Wretched man that I am - The struggle is now come to the height; and the man, finding there is no help in himself, begins almost unawares to pray, Who shall deliver me? He then seeks and looks for deliverance, till God in Christ appears to answer his question. The word which we translate deliver, implies force. And indeed without this there can be no deliverance. The body of this death - That is, this body of death; this mass of sin, leading to death eternal, and cleaving as close to me as my body to my soul. We may observe, the deliverance is not wrought yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then I myself with the mind truly serve the Law of God, and with the flesh the law of sin.
...I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord - That is, God will deliver me through Christ. But the apostle, as his frequent manner is, beautifully interweaves his assertion with thanksgiving;' the hymn of praise answering in a manner to the voice of sorrow, Wretched man that I am! So then - He here sums up the whole, and concludes what he began, Rom 7:7. I myself - Or rather that I, the person whom I am personating, till this deliverance is wrought. Serve the law of God with my mind - My reason and conscience declare for God. But with my flesh the law of sin - But my corrupt passions and appetites still rebel. The man is now utterly weary of his bondage, and upon the brink of liberty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to flesh, but according to Spirit.
...There is therefore now no condemnation - Either for things present or past. Now he comes to deliverance and liberty. The apostle here resumes the thread of his discourse, which was interrupted, Rom 7:7.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 8:2 For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set me free from the law of sin and of death.
...The law of the Spirit - That is, the gospel. Hath freed me from the law of sin and death - That is, the Mosaic dispensation (NOT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 8:3 For the Law being powerless, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
...For what the law - Of Moses (NOT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS). Could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh - Incapable of conquering our evil nature. If it could, God needed not to have sent his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh - We with our sinful flesh were devoted to death. But God sending his own Son, in the likeness of that flesh, though pure from sin, condemned that sin which was in our flesh; gave sentence, that sin should be destroyed, and the believer wholly delivered from it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 8:4 so that the righteous demand of the Law might be fulfilled in us, those not walking according to flesh, but according to Spirit.
...That the righteousness of the law - The holiness it required, described, Rom 8:11. Might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit - Who are guided in all our thoughts, words, and actions, not by corrupt nature, but by the Spirit of God. From this place St. Paul describes primarily the state of believers, and that of unbelievers only to illustrate this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 8:5 For the ones that are according to flesh mind the things of the flesh. And the ones according to Spirit mind the things of the Spirit.
...They that are after the flesh - Who remain under the guidance of corrupt nature. Mind the things of the flesh - Have their thoughts and affections fixed on such things as gratify corrupt nature; namely, on things visible and temporal; on things of the earth, on pleasure, (of sense or imagination,) praise, or riches. But they who are after the Spirit - Who are under his guidance. Mind the things of the Spirit - Think of, relish, love things invisible, eternal; the things which the Spirit hath revealed, which he works in us, moves us to, and promises to give us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;
...For to be carnally minded - That is, to mind the things of the flesh. Is death - The sure mark of spiritual death, and the way to death everlasting. But to be spiritually minded - That is, to mind the things of the Spirit. Is life - A sure mark of spiritual life, and the way to life everlasting. And attended with peace - The peace of God, which is the foretaste of life everlasting; and peace with God, opposite to the enmity mentioned in the next verse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards God; for it is not being subjected to the Law of God, for neither can it be.
...Enmity against God - His existence, power, and providence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 8:8 And those being in the flesh are not able to please God.
...They who are in the flesh - Under the government of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 8:9 But you are not in flesh, but in Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, this one is not His.
...In the Spirit - Under his government. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ - Dwelling and governing in him. He is none of his - He is not a member of Christ; not a Christian; not in a state of salvation. A plain, express declaration, which admits of no exception. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard
Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, the body indeed is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
...Now if Christ be in you - Where the Spirit of Christ is, there is Christ. The body indeed is dead - Devoted to death. Because of sin - Heretofore committed. But the Spirit is life - Already truly alive. Because of righteousness - Now attained. From Rom 8:13, St. Paul, having finished what he had begun, Rom 6:1, describes purely the state of believers.
Commentary by-Wesley's Notes on the Bible.
Paul is teaching those who are around him. In order to show in the most lively manner the weakness and inefficacy of theMosaic law (NOT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS), changes the person and speaks as of himself.
Richard, No where, in any of the scripture you provided...nor in any other part of the Bible, will you ever be able to find scripture which supports your belief that one who is born of God, if they continue to commit willfull sin, would still receive eternal life. The opposite is true according to the word of God. You would understand that when you read scripture if you read it in Spirit and in Truth.
Read it and weep:
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
...and this...
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
...and this...
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
...and this...
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
...and this...
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
...and this...
Hebrews 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Verna.
Q. Can one who is born of God ontinue to commit willfull sin and still receive eternal life?
ANS. ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Last edited by Verna Perry; 11-29-2011 at 05:42 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
