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God sacrifices human for all sins yet hell still exists? I'm baffled by your beliefs.
Christ was God in the flesh not just a mere human man, and hell means the grave; so yes it exsists. All men die and go to sheol/hades which mean the grave.
Now if you're confusing 'hell fire' with the grave then that is a totally different subject. Whenever Christ used the words 'hell fire' He was using a metaphor for the second death; the lake of fire where the wicked will be turned to ashes; cease to exsist.
Just a couple of passages in this regards:
Ps 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Ps 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
Christ did not die INSTEAD of us. He died FOR us. So that instead of remaining in Adam and the death he brought upon us, we will now be remade in the image of Christ. Man still dies a physical death. But JUST AS IN ADAM ALL DIE (in the exact same way/manner) so ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE in CHRIST, not just brought back to face judgment (which we will), and then be thrown into the Lake of Fire forever (if we haven't made the cut), but we are given life with no prior consent on our part in either case.
But as long as one has it in their mindset that God created Adam and HOPED that he and his children would choose to serve him from a will that God made capable of disobedience and rebellion, and offered ONE chance during however many years he's given one in this life to accept this offer.....well then mostly our SALVATION depends on us hearing the right messages and making the right decision.
I will continue to believe that God is NOW and HAS BEEN SINCE EDEN, in the process of creating sons (daughters also) in HIS image. It is all HIS work, He has a desire to the work of His hands, and though we certainly have wills, He directs our steps. He is the author and finisher of our faith, and I will believe He does all the work in between. Is there some cooperation expected on our part, of course, but don't forget, it is HE who puts the desire to do good into us.
So easy, yet so difficult for us to give up on the idea that we have some control over what happens. He KNEW what He was doing when He began this whole creation business and I will rest in my view that he is a Good and Merciful Father who wouldn't create knowing that any part of that creation would forever be estranged from Him, let alone suffer in agony in a place of torment or even be snuffed out of existence.
So enjoy your feeling of superiority and accomplishment in your life without sin. But be careful in demanding others to follow your path. It SEEMS to me you are placing more difficult demands upon the people than Moses did, for there are now NEW COMMANDMENTS to honor besides those of the OLD Testament.
The grace of God shine upon our faces this week.
Christ died on the cross, in our place as a substitute, so that those who believe in Him will not perish. Christ died a substitional spiritual death on our behalf. Spiritual death is separation from God. Physical death is the result of spiritual death.
All mankind will not be made alive in Christ. Only those who place their faith in Him will be saved. Those who don't receive Christ as Savior remain under the penalty of sin. Everyone who is physically born is born already spiritually dead. Everyone who dies physically without having received Christ as Savior, remains spiritually dead forever. That is, he will be forever separated from God.
You are confusing me with someone else. No one is without sin. All believers continue to sin. That is why God made the provision of 1 John 1:9.
Christ was God in the flesh not just a mere human man, and hell means the grave; so yes it exsists. All men die and go to sheol/hades which mean the grave.
Now if you're confusing 'hell fire' with the grave then that is a totally different subject. Whenever Christ used the words 'hell fire' He was using a metaphor for the second death; the lake of fire where the wicked will be turned to ashes; cease to exsist.
Just a couple of passages in this regards:
Ps 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Ps 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
And the lake of fire which is not hades, is a place of conscious everlasting suffering. The unbeliever does not cease to exist in the lake of fire.
But annihilationism versus everlasting existence in the lake of fire is not the topic of this thread, so please don't pursue the matter on this thread.
Christ did not die INSTEAD of us. He died FOR us. So that instead of remaining in Adam and the death he brought upon us, we will now be remade in the image of Christ. Man still dies a physical death. But JUST AS IN ADAM ALL DIE (in the exact same way/manner) so ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE in CHRIST, not just brought back to face judgment (which we will), and then be thrown into the Lake of Fire forever (if we haven't made the cut), but we are given life with no prior consent on our part in either case.
But as long as one has it in their mindset that God created Adam and HOPED that he and his children would choose to serve him from a will that God made capable of disobedience and rebellion, and offered ONE chance during however many years he's given one in this life to accept this offer.....well then mostly our SALVATION depends on us hearing the right messages and making the right decision.
I will continue to believe that God is NOW and HAS BEEN SINCE EDEN, in the process of creating sons (daughters also) in HIS image. It is all HIS work, He has a desire to the work of His hands, and though we certainly have wills, He directs our steps. He is the author and finisher of our faith, and I will believe He does all the work in between. Is there some cooperation expected on our part, of course, but don't forget, it is HE who puts the desire to do good into us.
So easy, yet so difficult for us to give up on the idea that we have some control over what happens. He KNEW what He was doing when He began this whole creation business and I will rest in my view that he is a Good and Merciful Father who wouldn't create knowing that any part of that creation would forever be estranged from Him, let alone suffer in agony in a place of torment or even be snuffed out of existence.
So enjoy your feeling of superiority and accomplishment in your life without sin. But be careful in demanding others to follow your path. It SEEMS to me you are placing more difficult demands upon the people than Moses did, for there are now NEW COMMANDMENTS to honor besides those of the OLD Testament.
Simply read the last three sentences of the post. I explained what Jesus meant by tetelestai.
To the contrary, the contextual translation is: It is finished, accomplished and completed, bringing it to an end.
[It] makes absolutely no sense to take a detour from that which was accomplished, completed and finished, putting an end to sacrificing, "For I desire mercy, not Sacrifice." Unless of course, you would like to "add" in a substitution theory of scapegoating!
After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been paid in full, to fulfill the Scriptures, said – ‘I am thirsty.’
Therefore, when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, It is paid in full.
Instead of:
After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished(tetelestai), to fulfill the Scriptures, said – 'I am thirsty.'
Therefore, when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, tetelestai (It is finished!) And He bowed His head and gave up His Spirit into the hands of the Father.
His death on the cross by the hands of godless men was complete in accordance with the Scriptures. This man, who was raised up according to the
predetermined plan and foreknowledge of the Spirit, and Father of all, overcame the wickedness of men, publically exposing them in the face of adversity.
Mike, Christ did not die as a substitute for us. All mankind were placed in Christ when He died. When He died He put the old humanity to death.
Your in gigantic denial. If He put all in Christ then why doesn't the world act like Christ. Only those who receive Him have a chance to change into His likeness. Do you have any more snake oil to sell?
''Enjoyed the commentary, here is one of mine:[/i]
It appears that the death of Jesus was brought about through human volition, given the political and religious powers of the day. Although at the same time, Jesus was fully aware that his message and what he represented to the status quo, would ultimately lead to his own death. Thus, his life was an issue in setting the captives free from the established sects of the day. But his death was not divinely foreordained as a penal substitution, whereas, there is no greater love than to lay one's own life down for that of another, instead of drawing a sword. Many are fixated on Jesus' death, and will accept nothing but the blood of Jesus, as "they know not, what they do." Although, there is only ONE whose undeniable innocence (not an ordinary victim) was able to change the process of scapegoating (a slaughterhouse religion with a carnivorous diet).[/font] And it is a saving act of God; a victory over the powers of this world (men) and a defeat of death, reversing it through his Life and Resurrection. The cross may, indeed be, the centerpiece of the Christian religion, but it is not God's altar. Rather, it is the gospel which was/is/will end all bloodshed, not that of merely exchanging victims (bulls and goats for that of Christ as a substitution). It was a sacrifice to end all sacrificing. Let's not make it a prescription for suffering death, but ONE of LIFE.Through personal experience, the human race will learn how deadly and destructive their choices have been. Collectively, we still have not learned that lesson, but we will – that's a promise!''
Such a statement is nothing less than an attack on the gospel. It denies the primary reason for which Jesus Christ came into the world.
Jesus' death on the cross absolutely was divinely ordained. Jesus was delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God.
Acts 2:23 'This Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
Gal 1:3 'Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4] who gave Himself (as a substitute) for our sins, that He might deliver us out of this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father...'
Gal 3:13 'Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (therefore as a substitute for us), for it is written, ''Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree''
2 Corinthians 5:21 'He (God the Father) made Him (Jesus Christ) who knew no sin to be made sin on our behalf (He died a substituationary death on our behalf), that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
1 Timothy 2:5 'For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6] who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony borne at the proper time.'
The crucifixion was God's set purpose. It was the primary reason that Jesus came into the world. To be the final sacrifice our sins. Without the cross there would have been no salvation. All the animal sacrifices which occurred prior to the cross were types of Jesus' death on the cross.
The purpose of Christ's substitutionary death on our behalf was to redeem us and set us free from the penalty of sin which is spiritual death. Christ ''gave Himself for us'' means that He became our substitute. 'And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross' (1 Peter 2:24). He set us free by paying a price, redeeming us by His death on our behalf. Jesus shed His blood in His vicarious sacrifice for sin. His death is a propitiation, a turning back the wrath of God from the sinner who believes in Him.
1 John 2:1b '...And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2] and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for our sins only, but also for those of the whole world.
1 John 4:10 'In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.'
Romans 3:23 'for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24] being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25] whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.
A part of understanding the gospel is realizing that because we are spiritually dead as a result of sin, and helpless to do anything about it, Jesus Christ came into the world for the purpose of dying on the cross as our substitute, in order to redeem us from our sins.
Jesus' spiritual and physical deaths on the cross were predetermined by God in eternity past. His spiritual death took place during the three hours from 12 noon to about 3 P.M when the sins of the world were poured out on Him and judged. During this time, God the Father had to turn away from Jesus. Jesus' relationship with the Father was broken during this time. When our personal sins had all been judged, Jesus said --'Tetelestai', ''It is finished.''(John 19:30)
We have Papyri receipts for taxes which have the word 'Tetelestai' written across them, which means 'paid in full.' Jesus said that His redemptive work on the cross had been completed. He had borne and been judged for the sins of the world and had paid the penalty for sin which the justice of God demanded.
I know we have had our differances, but I want to compliment you on your sound doctrine concerning this and you stand fast. Peace
Christ died on the cross, in our place as a substitute, so that those who believe in Him will not perish. Christ died a substitional spiritual death on our behalf. Spiritual death is separation from God. Physical death is the result of spiritual death.
All mankind will not be made alive in Christ. Only those who place their faith in Him will be saved. Those who don't receive Christ as Savior remain under the penalty of sin. Everyone who is physically born is born already spiritually dead. Everyone who dies physically without having received Christ as Savior, remains spiritually dead forever. That is, he will be forever separated from God.
You are confusing me with someone else. No one is without sin. All believers continue to sin. That is why God made the provision of 1 John 1:9.
No you are quite mistaken. ALL mankind WILL be made alive in Christ. It is YOU who misunderstands the gospel. We are to be ambassadors to bring the good news to the world that God is no longer imputing sins to the world.
[font=Verdana]To the contrary, the contextual translation is: It is finished, accomplished and completed, bringing it to an end.
Which is just what I said. Read the last four sentences of the first post.
Here they are.
When our personal sins had all been judged, Jesus said --'Tetelestai', ''It is finished.'' (John 19:30).
We have Papyri receipts for taxes which have the word 'Tetelestai' written across them, which means 'paid in full.' Jesus said that His redemptive work on the cross had been completed. He had borne and been judged for the sins of the world and had paid the penalty for sin which the justice of God demanded.
Tetelestai means 'It is finished.' 'Paid in full.' Jesus Christ paid in full, the penalty for the sins of the world.
No you are quite mistaken. ALL mankind WILL be made alive in Christ. It is YOU who misunderstands the gospel. We are to be ambassadors to bring the good news to the world that God is no longer imputing sins to the world.
Universalism is a false gospel. No one who rejects Jesus Christ as Savior will be saved from eternity in the lake of fire.
Universalism is not the topic of this thread however. Please don't pursue it.
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