The greatest deceit…you must choose to believe in Christ (prayer, blood)
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Cimaroon, I wanted to go back to this post for a moment and very briefly explain how I understand this now. I realize you may not understand it or agree, and that's fine. I just wanted to share it with you.
You reference 1 cor 15:45-46 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam a quickening spirit. Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
I believe that in OUR awareness, this ^^^ is exactly how it is. We are first consciously aware of our earthy/flesh/natural existence and only later do we become conscious of the spiritual/quickening spirit (Christ) within our earthen vessels.
This could sound quite logical but here is the problem with that: you are speaking of this earthen vessel.
If you read 1 Corinthians 15:35-49 it is speaking of our dying bodies and how it will be when we are resurrected...What we will be like.
The seed that is being sown in the ground is our earthy body.
Ecclesiastes 3:20
All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
We are sown in the ground a natural body, but when we are raised again we will be a spiritual body. This is the new spiritual body that has a new heart, giving us knowledge and understanding.
When we were first created we were created a natural body...when this body dies and is plant/sown in the earth it will be raised a spiritual body.
God will not put this new heart in our old dying bodies for he said no one will put new wine in old wineskins. The new heart that does not deceive you is put in the new body.
Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
Only when our hearts are pure can we truly see God. See the word. See the truth. See the life.
I asked you:
So are you saying God does not create evil?
And you said:
God said He created evil.
Isaiah 45:7 I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
You said He does not.
Paul said:
Romans 3:4
Let God be true, but every man a liar
So I will believe God....He said he created evil, I will believe him.
You then said the evil comes from a heart that is not guarded...Who created the heart? Who knitted you together in your mother's womb. Who formed your inward parts? Was it not God?
Cimaroon what is the point of quoting scripture at one another ? We could do that until the cows come home. For example I quoted scripture stating God is not the author of confusion yet you state he is, so how you are suggesting I am going against scripture, you are too.
What I do know and it is a universal law, is what a man believes rules him. For as he thinks in his heart so is he. You are what you believe, you keep calling yourself a beast, I refuse to see you as that or call you that, and I know God certainly sees you not as a beast.
What I see from what you are sharing is that you do not see how faith works. For faith to work in our own individual worlds,faith believes we are or have that before the evidence of it becomes a reality. Jesus taught that when we pray believe you have received your request, Abraham was a Father of many nations before it was a reality.
Cimaroon, I do understand that your whole premise is built on your belief that we must experience physical death before we can experience Christ in us. I appreciate that that is where you are coming from, and that it is through that lens that you interpret all of the scriptures.
Obviously, I see things through a different lens. Given that we are seeing this "elephant" from such different vantage points, I'm not really sure where to go from here. I am not trying to dissuade you from having hope for after your physical death. I only feel that you are missing out by not having the hope of Christ in you for the here and now.
Cimaroon, I wanted to go back to this post for a moment and very briefly explain how I understand this now. I realize you may not understand it or agree, and that's fine. I just wanted to share it with you.
You reference 1 cor 15:45-46 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam a quickening spirit. Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
I believe that in OUR awareness, this ^^^ is exactly how it is. We are first consciously aware of our earthy/flesh/natural existence and only later do we become conscious of the spiritual/quickening spirit (Christ) within our earthen vessels.
But the greater reality which underlies this, I believe, is found in the words spoken by God: "I am the first and the last."
Humanity is just the dirt that the Seed/spirit of God, which has always been there, was planted in. The Spirit/Seed/Christ grows (is being resurrected) beneath the surface of our conscious awareness until it breaks through to our awareness at the right time.
That which has always been, though we were not aware of it, is what we become.
____ (What do you think, pcamps. Does that mesh with your own thoughts on this?)
I think it's a good explanation Pleroo. I personally see it as we are a spiritually being(of God)in an earthly body(of the earth), and being in this earthly body we forgot who we are,and lived off the earth instead of being who we are. We are asleep to who we are until Christ in us wakes us up, I believe just like the sun rises faithfully in the morning to give us light, I believe Light dawns every morning within us, but many of us remain asleep and do not see it. The sun is no respector of person it shines upon the righteous and unrighteous, and the Light within is no respector of person too, it shines in the righteous and unrighteous .
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. Ephesians 5:14
We need to be woken up to see the Light.
Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake, O Zion, clothe yourself with strength. Put on your garments of splendor, O Jerusalem, the holy city. The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again.
The uncircumcised and defiled, is our old way of seeing ourselves.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well. Psalm 139:14
How can you we believe we are beasts when God says this about us ?.
Cimaroon, I do understand that your whole premise is built on your belief that we must experience physical death before we can experience Christ in us. I appreciate that that is where you are coming from, and that it is through that lens that you interpret all of the scriptures.
Obviously, I see things through a different lens. Given that we are seeing this "elephant" from such different vantage points, I'm not really sure where to go from here. I am not trying to dissuade you from having hope for after your physical death. I only feel that you are missing out by not having the hope of Christ in you for the here and now.
I have never said you cannot experience Christ in this lifetime. Everyone of us has an experience of Christ.
If there is someone who believes in Christ being the Savior of mankind...that is an experience of Christ.
If another has no faith in Christ being the Savior, but is kind to another...that kindness is an experience of Christ. If someone is a murderer but loves and takes care of their children.....that instinct to take care of and to love another is an experience of Christ. But realize it is just an experience...a foretaste of the future glory. We don't all share complete knowledge of Christ, kindness of Christ, love of Christ, patience of Christ, faith of Christ etc. Each of us experience a part of him and we are to use our gift to edify each other...to build each other up.
As the scriptures state...No eye has seen, no ear has heard and no heart has imagined what God has prepared for those who love him. None of us love him until we completely obey him (John 14:15) and this happens only when he has cut out our iniquity and changed our hearts...only then can we really claim full knowledge, full kindness, full patience, full love, full faith etc. We can never fully experience Christ until we can fully experience every part of him. In other words everyone of us must have complete fulness of him in order to claim we fully know him. When we are like him, made in his image can we truly understand what it is like to be freed from the sinful nature of the flesh.
I wish that you would stop thinking that I am missing out on the hope...because that is far from the truth.......I have hope...this is what makes me know for certain without a doubt that we will all be saved and shall all be made in the image of the heavenly....I know this will happen. My hope is in God's promise and I believe him...I know it will be done. I have peace and joy in that hope, right here in this fleshy earthy body.....but it is still hope for it has not yet been manifest in us. I certainly believe that when we are all raised again we will be in his exact likeness...missing no part and fully experiencing what it is like to be Jesus Christ, the son of God.
Take Scarlet's example of the caterpillar and the butterfly....Being a caterpillar....I have no idea what it is like to be a butterfly....I see that the butterfly is beautiful and it can fly. That butterfly was my evidence that one day when I go to sleep I will wake up with beautiful wings but until that happens I am at rest in the hope that I will not always be a caterpillar but when he changes me I will be as the butterfly I saw flying in the sky. I won't always crawl on the ground and I am joyful to know that.
Cimaroon what is the point of quoting scripture at one another ? We could do that until the cows come home. For example I quoted scripture stating God is not the author of confusion yet you state he is, so how you are suggesting I am going against scripture, you are too.
What I do know and it is a universal law, is what a man believes rules him. For as he thinks in his heart so is he. You are what you believe, you keep calling yourself a beast, I refuse to see you as that or call you that, and I know God certainly sees you not as a beast.
What I see from what you are sharing is that you do not see how faith works. For faith to work in our own individual worlds,faith believes we are or have that before the evidence of it becomes a reality. Jesus taught that when we pray believe you have received your request, Abraham was a Father of many nations before it was a reality.
What a man thinks in his heart so he is...what you are not seeing is the state of our hearts as of present. I believe that as of now, until I sin no more I am the beast....my heart is deceptive and wicked .....for those who are born of God do not commit sin (1 John 3:9). But I also believe that one day I will have no more sin in me, I will be in his image...that is how faith works. It is hoping for something you cannot currently see. If you can already see it in your life then it is no longer faith.
A man believes he can fly and that gravity no longer rules him.... he jumps off a building believing he can fly in this earthy body... this is foolishness. He will fall.
A man believes he will one day fly when God has given him a glorified body.....so he waits for faith to work...he will not jump off the roof until he has been given the new body promised... for he knows he cannot fly, instead he looks forward to the day when he can...this is faith. See the difference!!!
I think it's a good explanation Pleroo. I personally see it as we are a spiritually being(of God)in an earthly body(of the earth), and being in this earthly body we forgot who we are,and lived off the earth instead of being who we are. We are asleep to who we are until Christ in us wakes us up, I believe just like the sun rises faithfully in the morning to give us light, I believe Light dawns every morning within us, but many of us remain asleep and do not see it. The sun is no respector of person it shines upon the righteous and unrighteous, and the Light within is no respector of person too, it shines in the righteous and unrighteous .
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. Ephesians 5:14
We need to be woken up to see the Light.
Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake, O Zion, clothe yourself with strength. Put on your garments of splendor, O Jerusalem, the holy city. The uncircumcised and defiled will not enter you again.
The uncircumcised and defiled, is our old way of seeing ourselves.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well. Psalm 139:14
How can you we believe we are beasts when God says this about us ?.
We are being woken up out of death and putting on our garments of strength and splendor....our glorified body. The uncircumcised, defile heart will not enter us again.
The uncircumcised and defiled is not our old way of seeing ourselves...it is our old selves....our sinful nature....the beast.
The uncircumcised is the impure heart:
Romans 2:28-29
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart......
Our uncircumcised heart is what defiles us:
Matthew 15:18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mark 7:15
It's not what goes into your body that defiles you; you are defiled by what comes from your heart."
I praise him for he is making me in his image....Am I in his image now...No, but when I am awaken from death I will have a glorified body, raised in strength, raised incorruptible. That defiled wicked uncircumcised heart will never enter that new body.
Christ said:
Matthew 5:48
Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Was he speaking prophecy or can we be perfect in this earthy body? Think about this...if any of us could be perfect in this earthy body, then that person would not physically die. The penalty of sin is death.
What a man thinks in his heart so he is...what you are not seeing is the state of our hearts as of present. I believe that as of now, until I sin no more I am the beast....my heart is deceptive and wicked .....for those who are born of God do not commit sin (1 John 3:9). But I also believe that one day I will have no more sin in me, I will be in his image...that is how faith works. It is hoping for something you cannot currently see. If you can already see it in your life then it is no longer faith.
A man believes he can fly and that gravity no longer rules him.... he jumps off a building believing he can fly in this earthy body... this is foolishness. He will fall.
A man believes he will one day fly when God has given him a glorified body.....so he waits for faith to work...he will not jump off the roof until he has been given the new body promised... for he knows he cannot fly, instead he looks forward to the day when he can...this is faith. See the difference!!!
You do realize that men DO fly now, right? Man imagined himself in flight, believed and had faith in what he saw in his imagination, and worked WITH the physical laws that are part of his existence to make flying a part of his reality. If all humans sat around waiting for physical death for everything to be accomplished for us, we'd still be living like our earliest ancestors. We would never grow, never evolve.
I wish that you would stop thinking that I am missing out on the hope...because that is far from the truth.......I have hope...
Right now, I just want to address this ^^^.
I didn't say that you are missing out on hope. I said you are missing out on a very specific hope: the hope of Christ in us in the here and now. Granted, that's a biggie, but it doesn't mean I think you have NO hope.
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Man imagined himself in flight, believed and had faith in what he saw in his imagination, and worked WITH the physical laws that are part of his existence to make flying a part of his reality. If all humans sat around waiting for physical death for everything to be accomplished for us, we'd still be living like our earliest ancestors. We would never grow, never evolve.
