Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You abuse the concept of 'going by the plain meaning of words'. Israel was called God's firstborn son in Ex. 4:22, but there were many nations in existence before Israel. However, as God's chosen people, Israel had preeminency over all other nations.
RESPONSE:
>>Israel had preeminency over all other nations<<
Don't try telling that to the Greeks and Romans both of which were more advanced and at one point conquered Israel. The Romans destroyed the Temple and later Jerusalem itself turning it into a pagan city.
In the Old Testament, God had lots of sons.
Modern archaeologists now recognize that the first seven books of the Bible (Pentuach amd Joshua and Job) are only folklore, not historical. The Hebrews never had an Exodus from Egypt since they were never there, nor did they spend 40 years in the desert. The Hebrews were originally nomadic herdsman and later farmers in Canaan.
Here is a website for the online book.The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts
>>Again, 'the first born' refers to the creator god or artisan.>>
RESPONSE:
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him"(Col 1:15 )
NOTE: It does not say "preeminency over all of Creation." Note also that man was made in the image of God.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.(or was a god). 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being 4in him was life,* and the life was the light of all people. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it." (John 1:1-5)
The beginning = the start of creation, not eternally. If you check Greek mythology you will find that the Demiurge (later the Logos) was considered a lesser god. Note also the reference to light and darkness in the last sentence. In Greek gnosticism, the light and darkness are opposing forces. Paul, as a hellenistic (Greek) Jew was familiar with this concept so used it.
Last edited by ancient warrior; 11-19-2012 at 04:59 PM..
So you are saying, that the God God, sent his human avatar to earth "Which was subject to him because after all it was his avatar" , Then his human avatar died, he raised his avatar from the dead,and now they sit side by side. God and his avatar.
originally posted by mike555
you seem desperate to avoid acknowledging that jesus christ is god. Jesus christ is one of three persons in the godhead.
Just as his title, 'the son of man' refers to his humanity, so also his title, 'the son of god' refers to his deity. Jesus christ is the unique son of god.
Jesus christ has all of the attributes of deity, including omnipresence, omnipotence, and omniscience. Man does not, and never will have these attributes of deity. But jesus christ as god does have those attributes.
Quote:
prove it...
That's easily done.
1.) Regarding the Omnipotence of Jesus Christ: God created the heavens and the earth [everything which has been created] (Gen 1:1). John 1:1-3 says, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. And Col. 1:16-17 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
It was by the Omnipotence of Jesus Christ that all things came into being and apart from whom nothing came into being that has come into being. It is the Omnipotence of Jesus Christ which holds all things together.
2.) Regarding the Omnipresence of Jesus Christ: While now seated at the right hand of the Father (the place of honor) in heaven in resurrected body, Jesus Christ also indwells every Church Age believer.
Heb. 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
John 14:20 "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. Every Church Age believer is entered into union with Christ, and as God, Jesus Christ indwells every Church Age believer.
The humanity of Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father, while the deity of Jesus Christ indwells every believer. As God, He is everywhere present.
3.) Regarding the Omniscience of Jesus Christ:
John 2:24 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men,
John 6:64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginningwho they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him
John 16:30 After His resurrection: "Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God [The Father]."
During His First Advent, Jesus refrained from the independent use of His deity apart from the Father's plan which explains why Jesus said that only the Father knew the day and hour of His return (Matt. 24:36).
1.) Regarding the Omnipotence of Jesus Christ: God created the heavens and the earth [everything which has been created] (Gen 1:1). John 1:1-3 says, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. And Col. 1:16-17 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
It was by the Omnipotence of Jesus Christ that all things came into being and apart from whom nothing came into being that has come into being. It is the Omnipotence of Jesus Christ which holds all things together.
2.) Regarding the Omnipresence of Jesus Christ: While now seated at the right hand of the Father (the place of honor) in heaven in resurrected body, Jesus Christ also indwells every Church Age believer.
Heb. 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
John 14:20 "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. Every Church Age believer is entered into union with Christ, and as God, Jesus Christ indwells every Church Age believer.
The humanity of Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father, while the deity of Jesus Christ indwells every believer. As God, He is everywhere present.
3.) Regarding the Omniscience of Jesus Christ:
John 2:24 But Jesus, on His part, was not entrusting Himself to them, for He knew all men,
John 6:64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginningwho they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him
John 16:30 After His resurrection: "Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God [The Father]."
During His First Advent, Jesus refrained from the independent use of His deity apart from the Father's plan which explains why Jesus said that only the Father knew the day and hour of His return (Matt. 24:36).
You just said he is sitting at the right hand of the father!!
So who is sitting at the right hand of the father??!
Who is beside himself? Jesus or .....
Turning stones to bread is hardly a reason to call him God..
Many people less then Jesus have worked greater miracles..
Men can only do miracles when given the ability to do so.
Satan said to Jesus ''If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.'' As stated already, The title 'Son of God' refers to Jesus' deity. Jesus was being tempted to use His deity apart from the Father's plan for the incarnation.
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by clickinmx
As for the early church , they never made any such inclination.
You obviously do not know Church history. You can read some of the comments of the early Church fathers on the deity of Jesus Christ.
And why do you not understand that the Bible flat out tells you that Jesus Christ is God?
Quote:
Originally Posted by clickinmx
So you are saying, that the God God, sent his human avatar to earth "Which was subject to him because after all it was his avatar" , Then his human avatar died, he raised his avatar from the dead,and now they sit side by side. God and his avatar.
No, I am telling you that Jesus Christ is true humanity, not an avatar. He is also truly God. And now the resurrected Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father as stated in Hebrews 1:3.
[quote=Mike555;27020467]Men can only do miracles when given the ability to do so.
Satan said to Jesus ''If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.'' As stated already, The title 'Son of God' refers to Jesus' deity. Jesus was being tempted to use His deity apart from the Father's plan for the incarnation.
Quote:
You obviously do not know Church history. You can read some of the comments of the early Church fathers on the deity of Jesus Christ.
And why do you not understand that the Bible flat out tells you that Jesus Christ is God?
No, I am telling you that Jesus Christ is true humanity, not an avatar. He is also truly God. And now the resurrected Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father as stated in Hebrews 1:3.
No my friend ... You are correct that he is true humanity , and that he is at the right hand of the father.
But he is not God , however God has given him all authority on earth and in heaven.
Be carfull , God has warned about putting other
Gods before him
You just said he is sitting at the right hand of the father!!
So who is sitting at the right hand of the father??!
Who is beside himself? Jesus or .....
Yes. He is sitting at the right hand of the Father. He is also indwelling every believer. That is because He is omnipresent. That is an attribute that only God has. Jesus Christ is able to simultaneously be in heaven, and yet indwell every believer because as God He is everywhere present.
Again, there are three Persons within the Godhead. There is God the Father who is the First Person of the Trinity. There is God the Son who is the Second Person of the Trinity, and there is God the Holy Spirit who is the Third Person of the Trinity. While there are three Persons within the Godhead, they are ONE GOD. Not three god's, but ONE GOD.
In his resurrected body, the humanity of Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of the Father, while as God, Jesus Christ is everywhere present.
Men can only do miracles when given the ability to do so.
Satan said to Jesus ''If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.'' As stated already, The title 'Son of God' refers to Jesus' deity. Jesus was being tempted to use His deity apart from the Father's plan for the incarnation.
No my friend ... You are correct that he is true humanity , and that he is at the right hand of the father.
But he is not God , however God has given him all authority on earth and in heaven.
Be carfull , God has warned about putting other
Gods before him
Have you not listened to one thing that I have said? Have you understood nothing?
The Bible says that Jesus Christ is God. I have shown you the passages. And that means nothing to you!!!
I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt up to a point that you might at least try to learn something, but it is obvious that you are either incapable of understanding, or unwilling to understand.
There is no point in continuing this conversation with you.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-19-2012 at 07:14 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
