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I don’t follow you. Care to explain and cite some verses?
Rev. 1:8 refers to ‘God’ because of the distinction in, v. 4 from Him who is and was and is to come….His throne, and from Jesus Christ.
The “who is, and who was and who is to come” is clearly identified from the context. Rev. 1:4 and 5 reads: The separation between “the one who was, is and is to come” and Jesus Christ can be clearly seen. The one “who is, and who was and who is to come” is 'God'. I don't believe Jesus is 'God'. And Jesus Christ is speaking in Rev. 1:18.
In 1:8 the speaker says "“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
So this is God, speaking, right? He keeps on speaking. In verses 1:17-18, John continues to describe the speaker, who previously identified himself as God in verse 8. Now, He says " 17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. "
If he's God (which he says he is in verse 8), then how did he die? He claimed in verses 17-18 that He is God...and he died and now lives.
The only possible explanation is that the speaker here is Jesus--and he's claiming to be God.
I am in Christ and Christ is in me, but I am not Christ.
Christ is in God and God is in Christ, but Christ is not God.
Christ was with God, in the beginning. He was begotten from God, but not God.
I am a daughter of God, by the Grace of God, not begotten.
This has been my belief since I can remember and I never had a problem with my fellow Christian church members in the rw telling me I could not be a real Christian because of that. I understand that for most here I am not a "real Christian"
but only God sees what is in my heart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
Thank you, Miss Blue, for that beautiful expression coming from a true Christian.
One who does not follow the fallacies of the majority, but knows what is in their heart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Blue
Mike, I have been giving this some thought, some studying, searching some debate, some friendly discussion and a whole lot of praying on the trinity since I was old enough to question probably for over 50 years. Man has not been able to convince me otherwise. I have been led to more verses that have convinced me Jesus is not His own father than verses claiming He is 3 in one.
I learned many years ago that I would have to separate the God/Creator I believe in and His begotten son Jesus from the ancient religions of man who worshipped many Gods. I just feel that in order to satisfy the many God belief that man invented the Trinity"( three in one God) in order to satisfy and bring others into a doctrine that is not in scripture (imo) They seemed to have forgotten that Gods Son was sent to save us from our sins which included having no other God[s] before Me
I don't claim I am right and don't claim anyone else is wrong. As I often say. God is the only judge of hearts and souls. I truly believe that belief/nonbelief in the trinity or not is not a requirement for showing Christ through our words and deeds...or for following Christ and being called Christian..
Beautiful witness, Miss Blue. I agree. We only need to follow Christ's commands to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't to be called Christian. Our "fruits" identify us . . . not our claims.
Mt 26:63
The man asked if Jesus ever claimed to be God. So here's the answer.:
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."
Mt 26:64 "Yes, it is as you say,"
Lk 17:16 He threw himself at Jesus’ feet and thanked him—and he was a Samaritan.
Lk 17:17 Jesus asked, "Were not all ten cleansed? Where are the other nine?
Lk 17:18 Was no one found to return and give praise to God except this foreigner?"
I can find more if the questioner wants. These are just the ones that came to mind immediately. There are more.
So in the first scripture you post, Jesus claimed to be the Son of God just as it says. In the Luke scripture...Acts 2:22 has always helped me clarify:
'Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:'
The Trinitarian argument appears to be reasonable on the surface, especially to those who support it.
But it is based on a single-verse or two, which I have been informed on many occasions – is unreliable!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
That is an ignorant statement, and is not true.
Of course it's true, or I would not have been so ignorant as to make that claim.
It came straight from the mouth of the Eternal Tormentors' on other threads.
"You cannot build a doctrine on a few verses of Scripture."
Quote:
A doctrine is established on all available Scripture pertaining to a subject.
Correct! And there are over 220 verses, speaking to that which you continually refuse to acknowledge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
But those who oppose the truth can build a doctrine on a few words of few verses ... words like "all" and "desire"
There are more than a few, Twin. But many such as yourself, refuse to recognize and acknowledge them.
Obviously, this question is directed at those who claim to be believers in Jesus Christ, but who deny that He is God.
Jesus Christ is both God and man. The Word became man. John 1:1-3 compared with John 1:14 and Phil. 2:5-8. He did not cease to be God when He became man. Revelation 19:13 [Speaking of Jesus Christ who is about to return from heaven at the end of the Tribulation] 'He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.' Jesus Christ IS the Word of God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2] He was in the beginning with God. 3] All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 14] And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Col. 1:16 For by [in] Him [Jesus Christ who preexisted as God] all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-- all things have been created through [dia - Jesus Christ is the agent of creation; He did the actual act of creation] Him and for Him. 17] He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Phil 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6] who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7] but emptied Himself [not of His deity, but of the independent use of His deity apart from the Father's plan for the incarnation. Satan tempted Jesus to use His deity independently of the Father's plan which called for Him to rely on the Holy Spirit, to turn stones into bread as stated in Matthew 4:3-4. There were occasions however when Jesus legitimately used His own deity during the First Advent], taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8] Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Now, here is the question, or three questions in one. Based ONLY on the verses given above, please please give a direct answer, rather than an evasive answer. Please do not bring in other verses which you think refute these verses I am asking you to base your answer on.
*** Did Jesus Christ preexist as God and did He create all that has been created, and is Jesus Christ holding all things together? YES or NO!!! ***
If you say 'YES', and yet deny that Jesus Christ is God, then you are saying that someone other than God created the universe. See Genesis 1:1.
If you say 'NO', then you deny what is revealed in John 1:1-3,Col. 1:16-17 and Phil. 2:5-8.
If Jesus is God then who did he pray to ? Himself?
yes i do deny it. he said he was son of God, not God. men however teach another story.
then it gets messy bek if he is God then his mother must be God and then of course her father & mother and so forth.
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We only need to follow Christ's commands to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't to be called Christian. Our "fruits" identify us . . . not our claims.
