Jesus Christ is both God and Man. A question for those of you who deny that!!! (hell, exodus)

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by Vizio

Only as God can he do that.

Only as the Son of God, could he lay down his life.
Remember: He was mortal, subjected to death.

[clickinmx]

Originally Posted by Vizio

Only God is perfect. Only a perfect sacrifice is acceptable. The book of Hebrews goes into that. The priest, who offers sacrifices for the people, first has to offer one for himself. His sacrifice is only good for a time. Jesus offered one for all time. Only as God can he do that.

Ok now you have revieled to me your reason for eccepting this...

You believe only a superfisial man can live the life he lived.
And it is impossible for you. That is a lie.
He was a man tempted as we were yet he said no.
This made him perfect.
And he has given us the power to do the same . Not an excuse and a licsence to sin.

This is off the topic but now i see where this is going.

[Jerwade]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Excellent post and references, Jerwade. I fear it will do no good, however. Unreasoning credulity cannot be reasoned with and certainly cannot be changed by citations. Rest easy in the knowledge that most of the conflicts are irrelevant anyway. Jesus clearly is man and He clearly has the Holy Spirit (consciousness) of God. All the wrangling about what that means is just human vanity and hubris in support of an outdated church infrastructure that is decaying and rotting from within under their retention of ancient ignorance as we speak. Christ is not interested in churches . . . he is interested in our "loving God and each other" daily and repenting when we don't. It couldn't be any simpler or clearer. The churches that realize that truth may survive . . . the others will eventually fade away, IMO.

People often claim to hunger for truth, but seldom like the taste unless it serves their purpose for living.

[beeveenh]

If Jesus' sacrificial death was a corresponding ransom for Adam's...then it would be an unbalanced overpayment if Jesus is God Almighty. In addition, If Jesus was God he would have an unfair advantage and anyone in Heaven and Earth could continue to challenge God's sovereignty. Adam was a perfect man...Jesus was a perfect man. Jesus willfully obeyed.

[beeveenh]

...and, if Jesus was God??? Then God died?

[clickinmx]

Originally Posted by beeveenh

If Jesus' sacrificial death was a corresponding ransom for Adam's...then it would be an unbalanced overpayment if Jesus is God Almighty. In addition, If Jesus was God he would have an unfair advantage and anyone in Heaven and Earth could continue to challenge God's sovereignty. Adam was a perfect man...Jesus was a perfect man. Jesus willfully obeyed.

Who did he willfully obey? Himself????

[Richard1965]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Richard, you're comprehension of the Scriptures is poor. You lack understanding.

For the compartments of Hades, simply see Luke 16:22-26. Jesus also referred to Abraham's bosom as Paradise which is where He told the thief he would be with Him that very day (Luke 23:43).

Here is Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum's biography. He is a Messianic Jew and understands the Hebraic mindset.

Ariel Ministries: Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum

Nor is he a Calvinist in the traditional sense. Here is his statement on salvation.

'We believe that salvation is wholly a work of God's free grace and not the work of man in whole or in part, nor due to man's goodness or religious ceremony; that it is a gift to man received by personal faith at which time the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the sinner, thereby justifying him in God's sight; that those who are saved have been unconditionally elected to salvation in eternity past and have been effectively and irresistibly called by the Holy Spirit.'
Ariel Ministries: Doctrinal Statement

Calvinists believe that one must first be saved before they can believe. As you can see from his doctrinal statement, Dr. Fruchtenbaum states that salvation is a gift which is received by personal fatih.

Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum also did the foreward on a book called 'Calvin on the Ropes,' >> Table of Contents Calvin on the Ropes


Actually, as I recall, You are a Calvinist. You have stated that salvation preceeds faith if I remember correctly.


You also misrepresent what Dallas Seminary teaches. The recognition that the Church began on the day of Pentecost does not imply that it teaches the speaking of tongues which is a belief of Pentecostal@ is Dallas Seminary's doctrinal statement. >> Doctrinal Statement | Dallas Theological Seminary (DTS)

Concerning the speaking of tongues, which again is a belief of Pentecostalism, here is Dallas Seminarys statement on that.

'We believe that some gifts of the Holy Spirit such as speaking in tongues and miraculous healings were temporary. We believe that speaking in tongues was never the common or necessary sign of the baptism nor of the filling of the Spirit, and that the deliverance of the body from sickness or death awaits the consummation of our salvation in the resurrection (Acts 4:8, 31; Rom. 8:23; 1 Cor. 13:8).'
Doctrinal Statement | Dallas Theological Seminary (DTS)

Futhermore, Dr. Fruchtenbaum doe not believe in the Two Messiah theory.

Here is his objection to that theory: from >> bethinking.org - Other Religions - Messianic Prophecies - First Things First

Are we schnorrers, willing to take good gifts from the Messiah, but only if they don't cost us anything in return? We want peace. We want prosperity. We want victory. But most don't want responsibility. We say, "Jesus couldn't have been the Messiah, because Messiah is supposed to bring peace, and Jesus didn't bring peace!"

To this objection, Arnold Fruchtenbaum's response is well taken: “Well, since (Jesus) was not accepted, he could not very well bring peace, could he? Furthermore, the purpose of the Messiah's first coming, or as the early rabbis would have it, the purpose of the coming of the first Messiah, the son of Joseph, was not to bring peace but to suffer and die.”[14]

[14] Arnold Fruchtenbaum, Jesus Was a Jew (Tustin. CA: Ariel Ministries, 1981), p. 91.


He was refuting the theory. Dr. Fruchtenbaum teaches that there is on Messiah who comes twice.

Now, again, Dr. Fruchtenbaum teaches about the Messiah here >> > Ariel Ministries: Come and See


But I also remember you saying something to the effect that you don't trust theologians because they might be lying. Yes Richard. That is why theologians exist. Their sole purpose is to lie to YOU!!! Every day they wake up saying, How can we lie to Richard today!!!

Again Richard, you profess an understanding that you simply do not have.


But all of this is getting off topic. I am not going to engage in an argument with you on how much you think you know.

You are the one who lacks understanding...You allows other to form your understanding...

[clickinmx]

Who did he willfully obey? Himself????
Now if God himself died then he died because no liveing human could keep the very laws he died for..

No ... I will sooner say he knew it was possible and he asked his own son to show us ... And then he died perfect which was the ultimate sacrifice, giveing us the second chance we need .

[beeveenh]

That wouldn't make sense, would it?

Are really asking if Jesus demonstrated obedience and subjection? Just trying to clarify your post.

[beeveenh]

Originally Posted by clickinmx

Who did he willfully obey? Himself????
Now if God himself died then he died because no liveing human could keep the very laws he died for..

No ... I will sooner say he knew it was possible and he asked his own son to show us ... And then he died perfect which was the ultimate sacrifice, giveing us the second chance we need .

So you are saying it is possible for God to die?