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Answer me this .
And not with links or verses ....
Who was the voice from heaven that said
( This is my beloved son in whom i am well pleased , here yee him...)???
Tell me who was this voice ?? or will you ignore this question as you ignore the new testement?
While the concept of the Trinity is found in the Old Testament, the plurality of the Godhead is more clearly expressed in the New Testament. As I told you in the other post, with the exception of some heretics, the early Church from the very beginning understood that Jesus Christ is God.
The voice was that of the First Person of the Trinity; God the Father. Jesus Christ is the Second Person of the Trinity and the Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Trinity.
And by the way, 'the angel of the Lord' in the Old Testament was a preincarnate appearance of Jesus Christ. It was Jesus Christ who appeared to Abraham and to Moses for instance.
Nope...You still haven't proved it from a Hebraic mindset...
Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum is a Messianic Jew who understands the Hebraic mindset and offers intensive Bible teaching from a Messianic Jewish perspective. He will explain the Trinity and the deity of the Messiah to you.
In 1:8 the speaker says "“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
So this is God, speaking, right?
Yes. Rev. 1:8 refers to ‘God’ because of the distinction in, v. 4 “… from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, AND from Jesus Christ.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
He keeps on speaking.
Sorry, I disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
In verses 1:17-18, John continues to describe the speaker, who previously identified himself as God in verse 8. Now, He says " 17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. "
The only possible explanation is that the speaker here is Jesus--and he's claiming to be God.
I disagree. Vizio, it seems you are not aware of how Revelation tends to switch between speakers abruptly. It may be helpful to quote verses 1:17-18 in its context in order to get acquainted with who is actually speaking. Below, I have inserted in square brackets [] who I think the speaker is next to each pronoun.
Quote:
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands I saw one like the Son of Man [Jesus], clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash across his chest.
Rev 1:14 His head and his hair were white as white wool, white as snow; his eyes were like a flame of fire,
Rev 1:15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined as in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and from his mouth came a sharp, two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining with full force.
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he placed his right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I [Jesus] am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the living one. I [Jesus ] was dead, and see, I am alive forever and ever; and I have the keys of Death and of Hades.
I have no doubt that the one who is speaking is Jesus on the basis of Rev. 1:13, 17-18. Jesus refers to himself as the first and the last and indicates the first and the last was dead. We know ‘God’ cannot die.
Yes. Rev. 1:8 refers to ‘God’ because of the distinction in, v. 4 “… from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, AND from Jesus Christ.â€
Sorry, I disagree.
I disagree. Vizio, it seems you are not aware of how Revelation tends to switch between speakers abruptly. It may be helpful to quote verses 1:17-18 in its context in order to get acquainted with who is actually speaking. Below, I have inserted in square brackets [] who I think the speaker is next to each pronoun.
I have no doubt that the one who is speaking is Jesus on the basis of Rev. 1:13, 17-18. Jesus refers to himself as the first and the last and indicates the first and the last was dead. We know ‘God’ cannot die.
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Depends what one means as 'pre-exist.'
Obviously, Jesus Christ the man did not pre-exist.
Now in what sense did he pre-exist as part of the 'trinity'?
Was he a separate spirit also called 'God', but of the same essence as God?
Or was he the one and only God the Father?
Regardless of how one defines 'Elohim', I don't really see God as being divisible. I personally lean towards him being the Father, or an aspect of God the Father, instead of a separate spirit, but perhaps there are multiple persons in the Cosmic brain of God, and Jesus was one of them. I've thought of Jesus as kind of the bridge between God and the Universe, the Act of Creation and Redemption itself.
Sorry for changing the subject breifly .
mike 555 this is your thread and your debate have i offended you personly in any way.?
Or in other words given anyone a good reason for deleting my posts other than arrogance .
Jesus said ( It is better that i go and send the comforter too you ) " not directly quoted"
Now if he goes to his father " a seperate being" and sends the comforter " yet another being " which all have the same mind .
If they are all one, how can they go to the other or send another?
Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum is a Messianic Jew who understands the Hebraic mindset and offers intensive Bible teaching from a Messianic Jewish perspective. He will explain the Trinity and the deity of the Messiah to you.
I do not need someone else to explain Scripture to me...I see he graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary and that is not Hebraic at all...I see that their creed is very Pentecostalish...I see he also teaches the two Messiah theory...Well, he is wrong on the subject where the word 'Hebrew' comes from...I also see that he is Calvinistic...He is also wrong concerning the Dietary Laws...
I see where you obtain your 'compartments of Sheol' from now...
Obviously, Jesus Christ the man did not pre-exist.
Now in what sense did he pre-exist as part of the 'trinity'?
Was he a separate spirit also called 'God', but of the same essence as God?
Or was he the one and only God the Father?
Regardless of how one defines 'Elohim', I don't really see God as being divisible. I personally lean towards him being the Father, or an aspect of God the Father, instead of a separate spirit, but perhaps there are multiple persons in the Cosmic brain of God, and Jesus was one of them. I've thought of Jesus as kind of the bridge between God and the Universe, the Act of Creation and Redemption itself.
John 1:1 tells us that the Word (the preexistant Jesus) was not only with God, but that He was God. That distinguishes Jesus Christ who is the Second Person of the Godhead, from the Father who is the First Person of the Godhead. Jesus Christ is not the Father.
Jesus Christ in His high priestly prayer recorded in John chapter 17, prayed to the Father that He might be glorified with the Father with same glory that He had had with the Father before the world was [in eternity past] See John 17:5. And so we see again that Jesus Christ [His human name] in eternity past was distinct from the Father.
The essense of God is not divisible. The essence of God consists of His attributes which are Sovereignty, Love, righteousness, justice, eternal life, omnipotence, omnipresence, omniscience, veracity (truth), and immutability. All three Persons of the Godhead possess these attributes which make up His essence or nature to an infinite degree.
God is said to be Spirit in John 4:24. Not Spirits.
John 4:24 "God (Theos; singular) is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
God is one Spirit and yet three persons, or three personalities, or three centers of consciousness. Those three Persons are of one essence. They are a United One. There is no concept of modualism here. God who is Spirit is one in His essence, but subsists as three Persons who each have their own will, but who are always in total agreement with each other.
Conversations between the Persons of the Godhead are recorded in Genesis 1:26, 3:22 and 11:7.
Gen. 1:26 Then God (Elohim; plural) said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Gen. 3:22 Then the LORD (Yahweh) God (Elohim; plural) said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever "--
Gen. 11:7 "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech."
It is God who created all that has come into being. God was not talking to the angels. This was God the Father speaking to the other Persons of the Godhead who are yet, One God.
There is an authority structure within the Godhead, which does not negate their equality. God the Father is the designer and author of the plan of creation and salvation. And each of the three Persons of the Godhead have their own roles within that plan.
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