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I have been following you and SeekerSa, as you both defend your beliefs.
I respect you both. Your knowledge, and passion is impressive.
My belief in our eternal destiny is not too far off from you guys, but I'd like to ask a ( long ) question. I have hestitated doing this, because I don't want to be drawn into a long scripture discussion.
Frankly, knowlegable and mature Christians of good will can interpret scripture very differently. There are some beliefs out there that seem patently heretical. But you guys have intrigued me.
I agree the beauty of heaven is available to all sinners, even after living a wretched life. But I do believe it is possible for someone to be so reprobate, so opposed to love and grace, that their hatred for God prevents them from accepting any salvation.
Take for example Ken Eckerty's analogy of his fatherhood, and his rebellious daughter. What if that daughter forever rejected her father's love. Sure, the father would never stop loving his daughter, but the daughter will never experience the joy of that relationship.
What if the prodigal son's hatred for his father was so strong, he would rather eat with swine.
Do you believe it is possible for someone to reject Christ eternally.
It would seem to me, that although God will always love us and pursue us, it is possible for us to reject Him. Eternally.
Please, to avoid another 100+ threads, I'd really like to hear your response in your own words. That's really what I'm asking for hear. I've read the scripture.
Thanks
TY for your kind words.
To make it short. When you felt the Father doing the drawing/revealing of who He was;
Could you resist it?
Did you feel like you had a choice?
I am not sure if you responded to an alter call or what happened. You would not be here discussing if you were not passionate about it in some measure.
No I do not believe one shall be able to reject Christ when they meet the "real deal". TOO AWESOME to comprehend. We experienced it spiritually, how more so will it be face-face? Even us who claim to be Christians will be astounded, don't you think?
To make it short. When you felt the Father doing the drawing/revealing of who He was;
Could you resist it?
Did you feel like you had a choice?
I am not sure if you responded to an alter call or what happened. You would not be here discussing if you were not passionate about it in some measure.
No I do not believe one shall be able to reject Christ when they meet the "real deal". TOO AWESOME to comprehend. We experienced it spiritually, how more so will it be face-face? Even us who claim to be Christians will be astounded, don't you think?
Who can resist unconditional Love?
BTW Jesus came for the reprobate sinners too.
Blessings
I agree with you. Who can imagine what it will be like to experience the author of Love.
I pray we're correct.
I have been following you and SeekerSa, as you both defend your beliefs.
I respect you both. Your knowledge, and passion is impressive.
My belief in our eternal destiny is not too far off from you guys, but I'd like to ask a ( long ) question. I have hestitated doing this, because I don't want to be drawn into a long scripture discussion.
Frankly, knowlegable and mature Christians of good will can interpret scripture very differently. There are some beliefs out there that seem patently heretical. But you guys have intrigued me.
I agree the beauty of heaven is available to all sinners, even after living a wretched life. But I do believe it is possible for someone to be so reprobate, so opposed to love and grace, that their hatred for God prevents them from accepting any salvation.
Take for example Ken Eckerty's analogy of his fatherhood, and his rebellious daughter. What if that daughter forever rejected her father's love. Sure, the father would never stop loving his daughter, but the daughter will never experience the joy of that relationship.
What if the prodigal son's hatred for his father was so strong, he would rather eat with swine.
Do you believe it is possible for someone to reject Christ eternally.
It would seem to me, that although God will always love us and pursue us, it is possible for us to reject Him. Eternally.
Please, to avoid another 100+ threads, I'd really like to hear your response in your own words. That's really what I'm asking for hear. I've read the scripture.
Thanks
Oakback, I also appreciate your kind words and you have always been respectful in your posts to me even when we have disagreed. Thank you. I agree with Seeker. God our Father is much more than a human father. He created every heart and knows exactly what it will take to convince each person. I agree, how can one resist forever when he or she is face to face with the Creator and all binders and blinders are removed? They will know the truth and the truth will set them free...The girl who forever resists her father and the prodigal son who hates the father is lost but God knows how to find a lost person, every lost person. And He knows why the hate and the resistance is there. It is not too difficult for Him to find the problem and treat it. He has all power, the will, and the love to do it. Hope this helps. God bless.
Oakback, I also appreciate your kind words and you have always been respectful in your posts to me even when we have disagreed. Thank you. I agree with Seeker. God our Father is much more than a human father. He created every heart and knows exactly what it will take to convince each person. I agree, how can one resist forever when he or she is face to face with the Creator and all binders and blinders are removed? They will know the truth and the truth will set them free...The girl who forever resists her father and the prodigal son who hates the father is lost but God knows how to find a lost person, every lost person. And He knows why the hate and the resistance is there. It is not too difficult for Him to find the problem and treat it. He has all power, the will, and the love to do it. Hope this helps. God bless.
what I know about hell is that nothing has ever been positive or pleasant about hell no matter when it was put on the table. makes no difference what shape it has taken on over these trillions of years I still choose to aim for heaven. the news about heaven has always been good no matter who or when it was put on the table of discussion, so heaven it is for me.
what I know about hell is that nothing has ever been positive or pleasant about hell no matter when it was put on the table. makes no difference what shape it has taken on over these trillions of years I still choose to aim for heaven. the news about heaven has always been good no matter who or when it was put on the table of discussion, so heaven it is for me. super blessings!
Well. Didn't Job say he longed to go to Sheol to escape his earthly sufferings? Again, I maintain that the simplistic 'heaven or hell' mentality of many Christians is way off base. The english word 'hell' has no Hebrew or Greek counterpart. Just a lot of myth and legend and traditions of men.
I'll quote myself here from the "letter from hell" thread and maybe it will shake some of the cobwebs off this subject.
The problem is that throughout scripture there is no consciousness, thought, knowledge, blessing or torment in Sheol/Hades EXCEPT in this one parable spoken by Jesus (Rich man and Lazarus). The idea that upon death a person immediately goes into conscious non-ending torments/blessings originated in pagan mythology.
Again, the two compartments 'instant' reward/punishment concept theory did not originally come from the Hebrews at all, but the Pharisees had such a doctrine - probably picked up while the Jews were in captivity to pagan nations. In the Pharisees version - the rich, who were (in their eyes) obviously blessed by God would be carried by angels (also un-scriptural) to their reward in the 'bosom of Abraham' (also a one time mention) while the poor beggars who were (in their eyes) obviously cursed by God were sent into instant fiery torments.
Jesus simply turned their OWN false doctrine upside down on them to show their hypocrisy. Also very telling is that faith in God is not mentioned in the parable at all - just that one had a good life and one a bad life.
Again, look for fiery torments in Sheol/Hades ANYWHERE ELSE in scripture - it doesn't exist. Sheol/Hades simply refers to the generic state of the dead (the grave) which is evidenced by it's free translation both ways (hell/grave). The good, bad and the ugly all go there.
So how did the church ever get to it's current doctrine of 'hell fire'?
Easy. The KJV translators substituted the english word 'hell' in the place of the word 'Geheena' - and *presto* we have a fiery 'hell'.
The problem here is that the judgment of Geheena was never mentioned to the Gentiles even once and was never used by any apostle of Christ except once by James, referring to the tongue. So how could it possibly denote the place of non-ending torment for the 'lost' of the world? Peter never mentioned it, nor Paul, nor John. In the entire book of acts - no mention of 'hell' at all. What does that tell us?
I hope you will not take my word for it, but study this out for yourselves. The church has believed a demonically inspired myth for far too long.
Absolutely. Nor will He need too. The facts are these:
1. Our Father has declared all knees will bow to Him, all tongues confess to Him.
2. The confession is not "at" the sound of Jesus Name, but in/en the Name of Jesus, and to the great glory of God the Father.
3. The confession is not by rote or perfuctory genuflections, but in union with the Name of all names.
4. The confession is one bathed in worship, praise, celebration and thanksgiving.
5. The confession is by all beings, in all dimensions of the universe: celestial, terrestial and subterrean.
6. The confession is not forced, but in willing worship and celebration.
7. "As I live saith the Lord"....the foundation of the confession, "by MY Life I have sworn!"
Phil. 2:10,11
Quote:
It is because of this also that God has so highly exalted Him, and has conferred on Him the Name which is supreme above every other name, In order that in the Name of Jesus (so that in adoration of the Name of Jesus) every knee should bow, of beings in the highest heavens, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
kavmptw = bow=
Used of worshippers.
To bow one's self.
Confess= ejxomologevw
Confess/ profess.
A. To acknowledge openly and joyfully.
B. To celebrate/ to give praise to.
Exomologeo Rooted In oJmologevw
oJmologevw=
To confess/ declare.
A. To profess/ declare openly and freely.
B. To profess one's self the worshipper of one.
C. To praise and celebrate.
In the Name/ Within the Name -Jonathan Mitchell Greek N.T.-
9. For this reason, God also lifts Him up above (highly exalts Him; elevates Him over) and by grace gives to Him (graces on Him) the Name -- the one over and above every name! --
10. to the end that within The Name: Jesus! (or: in the name of {or: belonging to} Jesus), EVERY KNEE -- of the men upon the heavens (of those belonging to the super-heavens) and of the men existing upon the earth and of the men dwelling down under the ground (or: pertaining to subterranean ones) -- may bend (should bow) in worship or prayer,
11. and EVERY TONGUE may speak out the same thing (should openly agree, confess and acclaim) that Jesus Christ Lord <= Yahweh?> -- into glory of Father God (or: unto Father God's reputation)!
Wow... If I understood a previous post, the person says that he doesn't see hell mentioned in NT Scripture - that it's a myth.
With all due respect, I think you've skipped a few chapters.
Hell is in the New Testament.
Read:
Matthew chapters 5, 10, 11, 16, 18 and 23.
Mark chapter 9.
Luke chapter 10, 12 and 16.
Acts chapter 2.
James chapter 3.
Revelation chapter(s) 1, 6 and 20.
Wow... If I understood a previous post, the person says that he doesn't see hell mentioned in NT Scripture - that it's a myth.
With all due respect, I think you've skipped a few chapters.
Hell is in the New Testament.
Read:
Matthew chapters 5, 10, 11, 16, 18 and 23.
Mark chapter 9.
Luke chapter 10, 12 and 16.
Acts chapter 2.
James chapter 3.
Revelation chapter(s) 1, 6 and 20.
Definitely not a myth...
Hell, all four of them sh@owl/ hades, tartaroo and gehenna are most certainly in the Scriptures. The question is what is hell and does it exist forever?
Quote:
And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire.
Section I - Additions To Chapter 2, Section II, Testimony of Orthodox Critics and Theologians to the Fact That the Doctrine Is Not Taught In the Law of Moses
Section II - Additions to Section III of Chapter 2, Sheol, Or the Old Testament Doctrine of Hell
Section III - Additions To Chapter 4, The Jews Borrowed the Doctrine From the Heathen
Section IV - Additions To Chapter 5, Section IV, The Words Eternal, Everlasting, Forever
Section V - Additions to Chapter 6, The Introduction of the Doctrine Into the Christian Church
Wow... If I understood a previous post, the person says that he doesn't see hell mentioned in NT Scripture - that it's a myth.
With all due respect, I think you've skipped a few chapters.
Hell is in the New Testament.
Read:
Matthew chapters 5, 10, 11, 16, 18 and 23.
Mark chapter 9.
Luke chapter 10, 12 and 16.
Acts chapter 2.
James chapter 3.
Revelation chapter(s) 1, 6 and 20.
Definitely not a myth...
No no, what you are about to be told is you don't understand "pagan history" and you have been "duped" into thinking something that really isn't even though it says it is. Sort of a conspriracy theory type deal.
Whenever you bring up clear scripture regarding the subject - more pagan history will be shoved your way and you will be told you were "brainwashed" into thinking otherwise.
The message is, that there is no eternal hell and everyone on the earth will be saved.
To me it's ludicrous with simple reasoning being applied.
If everyone is to be saved...why send a savior and tell people to believe. What's the point? Why is there a certain numbers of the "saved" mentioned? Why did Jesus say "depart from me I never knew you"?
If hell is not eternal, why does it say ETERNAL FIRE and ETERNAL PUNISHMENT. LOL I'm sure my words will now be spun into something like "well it's eternal separation from God." or "It's utter destruction you just shut off." but I also can't ignore passages like Jude 1:7
Jud 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
I guess it really doesn't say what it says...or the translators didn't understand pagan culture well enough etc etc.
We, the angels, Satan and the demons and "heaven" are eternal beings/place...no? Then why would "hell" not be an eternal place?
Last edited by JViello; 02-18-2008 at 06:12 AM..
Reason: spelling
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