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You have shown nothing and you keep mixing different words and their meanings with different contexts producing nothing but confusion for you. There is no way you can "be like the wind" while still in a physical body, yet everyone who is born as Spirit can. How do you reconcile that silliness? Why would Jesus emphasize that Flesh is born as Flesh and Spirit is born as Spirit???? Your dogma is getting in the way of your understanding.
I have shown you from the Scriptures themselves that gennaō refers to being born. If you had bothered to look at John 16:21 in the interlinear link I provided, you would have seen that. And this fact is blatantly clear to anyone who has read my posts on the matter. Your denials are childish and immature.
All John 3:8 means is that the work of the Holy Spirit is invisible and mysterious like the blowing of the wind. The verse is a wordplay.
As F. F. Bruce puts it;
Here it is specially necessary to remember the wide range in meaning of Gk. pneuma; it is used twice in this verse, being translated first as 'wind' and then as 'Spirit'. Indeed, a case has been argued for rendering the first part of the verse 'the Spirit breathes where he pleases . . .', but the following words about hearing the sound but not knowing provenance or destination are more appropriate to the wind. As in the vision of Ezek. 37, however, the operation of the wind is a parable of the work of the Spirit. As the coming or going of the wind cannot be controlled by human power or wisdom, so the new birth of the Spirit is independent of human volition -- coming neither 'from the will of flesh nor from the will of a man', as John has already put it in is prologue (John 1:13). The hidden work of the Spirit in the human heart cannot be controlled or seen, but its effect are unmistakably evident.
F. F. Bruce, The Gospel of John, p. 85
As for the phrase, ''So is every one that is born of the Spirit,'' Barnes puts it like this;
So is every one ... - Everyone that is born of the Spirit is, in some respects, like the effects of the wind. You see it not, you cannot discern its laws, but you see its effects," and you know therefore that it does exist and operate. Nicodemus' objection was, that he could not "see" this change, or perceive "how" it could be. Jesus tells him that he should not reject a doctrine merely because he could not understand it. Neither could the "wind" be seen, but its effects were well known, and no one doubted the existence or the power of the agent. Compare Ecclesiastes 11:5
Your belief that John 3:8 means that you have to die physically in order to be reborn is not what Jesus meant. Frankly most of your beliefs are not Biblical, and not Christian. They are more on the order of gnostic and / or new age beliefs.
Again, and as has been clearly shown, being born again is a spiritual rebirth that occurs at the moment of faith in Christ Jesus.
You have shown nothing and you keep mixing different words and their meanings with different contexts producing nothing but confusion for you. There is no way you can "be like the wind" while still in a physical body, yet everyone who is born as Spirit can. How do you reconcile that silliness? Why would Jesus emphasize that Flesh is born as Flesh and Spirit is born as Spirit???? Your dogma is getting in the way of your understanding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Your belief that John 3:8 means that you have to die physically in order to be reborn is not what Jesus meant. Frankly most of your beliefs are not Biblical, and not Christian. They are more on the order of gnostic beliefs.
Again, and as has been clearly shown, being born again is a spiritual rebirth that occurs at the moment of faith in Christ Jesus.
We are conceived of God . . . NOT "born" and it happens when we love God and each other as Jesus instructed. My beliefs are Christian, but your concern over what is and is not Biblical seems more Biblean than Christian. As long as you revere the Bible as the word of God instead of Jesus who is the living Word of God . . . you will be in error.
We are conceived of God . . . NOT "born" and it happens when we love God and each other as Jesus instructed. My beliefs are Christian, but your concern over what is and is not Biblical seems more Biblean than Christian. As long as you revere the Bible as the word of God instead of Jesus who is the living Word of God . . . you will be in error.
You have been shown in posts #169, 174, 176, and 179 that the word gennaō refers to a birth, both in a physical sense, and in a spiritual sense. You have been shown that the Scriptural meaning of gennaō has to do with being regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and that this occurs when a person receives Jesus as Savior.
To continue to deny this fact after having been presented with the proof is unreasonable and indicative of someone who cannot examine his beliefs objectively. You show yourself to be someone who cannot be reasoned with. That makes any further attempts of trying to get through to you a waste of time. And you have taken up enough of that time.
Last edited by Michael Way; 09-11-2015 at 07:53 PM..
We are conceived of God . . . NOT "born" and it happens when we love God and each other as Jesus instructed. My beliefs are Christian, but your concern over what is and is not Biblical seems more Biblean than Christian. As long as you revere the Bible as the word of God instead of Jesus who is the living Word of God . . . you will be in error.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
To continue to deny this fact after having been presented with the proof is unreasonable and indicative of someone who cannot examine his beliefs objectively. You show yourself to be someone who cannot be reasoned with. That makes any further attempts of trying to get through to you a waste of time. And you have taken up enough of that time.
Clearly you fear being an embryo Spirit developing (or not) to maturity and eventual rebirth as Spirit. Your ears are tickled by the idea of simply accepting and believing the right things ABOUT Jesus. The idea is clearly terrifying that because of too few attempts to love God and each other every day and repent when you don't you might actually reach death with an immature Spirit. You want all the magic carefree beliefs you currently hold. What will you do when you find out they are wrong. You can't blame your mentors.
You have been shown in posts #169, 174, 176, and 179 that the word gennaō refers to a birth, both in a physical sense, and in a spiritual sense. You have been shown that the Scriptural meaning of gennaō has to do with being regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and that this occurs when a person receives Jesus as Savior.
To continue to deny this fact after having been presented with the proof is unreasonable and indicative of someone who cannot examine his beliefs objectively. You show yourself to be someone who cannot be reasoned with. That makes any further attempts of trying to get through to you a waste of time. And you have taken up enough of that time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Clearly you fear being an embryo Spirit developing (or not) to maturity and eventual rebirth as Spirit. Your ears are tickled by the idea of simply accepting and believing the right things ABOUT Jesus. The idea is clearly terrifying that because of too few attempts to love God and each other every day and repent when you don't you might actually reach death with an immature Spirit. You want all the magic carefree beliefs you currently hold. What will you do when you find out they are wrong. You can't blame your mentors.
This kind of accusation comes from an immature person who knows he has lost an argument but cannot accept it. One last time, you have been shown in posts #169, 174, 176, and 179, no matter how much you deny it that gennaō refers to being born again. People can read those posts and see it for themselves. But Christians generally know that they are born again anyway as of the moment they receive Christ as Savior.
We're done here. Again, you have taken up enough of my time. I do expect that you will take another cheap shot at me.
Clearly you fear being an embryo Spirit developing (or not) to maturity and eventual rebirth as Spirit. Your ears are tickled by the idea of simply accepting and believing the right things ABOUT Jesus. The idea is clearly terrifying that because of too few attempts to love God and each other every day and repent when you don't you might actually reach death with an immature Spirit. You want all the magic carefree beliefs you currently hold. What will you do when you find out they are wrong. You can't blame your mentors.
Good heavens. How do you come up with this wacky stuff?
Clearly you fear being an embryo Spirit developing (or not) to maturity and eventual rebirth as Spirit. Your ears are tickled by the idea of simply accepting and believing the right things ABOUT Jesus. The idea is clearly terrifying that because of too few attempts to love God and each other every day and repent when you don't you might actually reach death with an immature Spirit. You want all the magic carefree beliefs you currently hold. What will you do when you find out they are wrong. You can't blame your mentors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80
Good heavens. How do you come up with this wacky stuff?
you think it is wacky that we are supposed to mature spiritually sufficient to be "born again" as Spirit upon our physical death??? You may not like the implications of it for your own fate, but wacky usually requires more far out things.
This kind of accusation comes from an immature person who knows he has lost an argument but cannot accept it. One last time, you have been shown in posts #169, 174, 176, and 179, no matter how much you deny it that gennaō refers to being born again. People can read those posts and see it for themselves. But Christians generally know that they are born again anyway as of the moment they receive Christ as Savior.
We're done here. Again, you have taken up enough of my time. I do expect that you will take another cheap shot at me.
Actually it was NOT an accusation. It was a warning about your reliance on the "ear tickling" beliefs you are relying on. They are easy, for sure, but when you learn that they are wrong, you will have no recourse. Produce as much agape love for God and each other as you can and repent whenever you don't. Don't waste the opportunity relying on false and magical beliefs.
Jesus was speaking to the little flock( Luke 12:32) here.( Rev 3:21) They are the anointed, the bride of Christ--they are literally numbered=144,000 are bought from the earth-Rev 14:3)
There isn't a single passage saying the great multitude are going to heaven in the bible.
That is not what He said. You are adding to His word to fit your Theology. Jesus made it clear that whosoever overcomes shall sit with Him. Millions will because it is written we can overcome, ROM 8:37 "In all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us." Which means after conquering our sin through Christ we will reign with Him.
LK 12:32 "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." Jesus was talking to the Jews specifically but by way of extension because the promises of salvation are without prejudice, the Gentles [the "other sheep not of this fold' of Jews] also have the good pleasure to receive the Kingdom.
The 144,000 are only Jews for a special reason which I am guessing you are not. It does not leave out the fact that Gentles will come to the Throne Room to be with Him as the following Scripture points out.
REV 7:9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the Throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"
If you relied on the Holy Spirit rather than your human teachers you would "see" with the eye of your soul, the Kingdom of Heaven, by way of the Spirit of Truth and realize that what I am saying is true. If any 1COR 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."
ROM 8:9 "But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His."
Here is the problem with so many religions: 2TIM 3:5 "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
That is not what He said. You are adding to His word to fit your Theology. Jesus made it clear that whosoever overcomes shall sit with Him. Millions will because it is written we can overcome, ROM 8:37 "In all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us." Which means after conquering our sin through Christ we will reign with Him.
LK 12:32 "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." Jesus was talking to the Jews specifically but by way of extension because the promises of salvation are without prejudice, the Gentles [the "other sheep not of this fold' of Jews] also have the good pleasure to receive the Kingdom.
The 144,000 are only Jews for a special reason which I am guessing you are not. It does not leave out the fact that Gentles will come to the Throne Room to be with Him as the following Scripture points out.
REV 7:9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the Throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"
If you relied on the Holy Spirit rather than your human teachers you would "see" with the eye of your soul, the Kingdom of Heaven, by way of the Spirit of Truth and realize that what I am saying is true. If any 1COR 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."
ROM 8:9 "But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His."
Here is the problem with so many religions: 2TIM 3:5 "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
At the point in time spoken to the great multitude there, no matter where one is standing--earth, moon, or heaven, they will be standing before the throne of God--it will be the only ruling authority in existence at that point.
Gods word directs one to listen to Jesus' anointed teachers( faithful and discreet slave) it compared that as one is listening to Jesus and God as well, and vica versa. Luke 10:16)
33,000 disunified mass of confusion trinity religions claiming Christianity--these two verses say they are not Gods--1Cor 1:10--no division--Mark 3:24-26--a house divided will not stand. And those two verses are correct. Not until these last days did truth come back to the earth-Daniel 12:4)
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