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What was written of Jesus alone was not written of the Jews in general. Jesus died for the sins of the world. The Jews did not. Jesus interceded on our behalf. The Jews did not. Isaiah 53 is about Jesus, not the Jews as a group.
Christianism is syncretistic in nature, and there is no doubt that it has borrowed various aspects of other religions, making it their own.
To make a case that the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is a group you must demonstrate that the scriptures anywhere state that a group of people offered themselves as a guilt offering by which they bore the sin of many. You also must demonstrate that the apostle Philip was in error in saying that Isaiah 53 applied to Jesus and that Jesus Himself was in error by applying it to Himself. One individual is in view in Isaiah 53. Not a group.
No, no, no...The one who claimed Phillip said that is in error....
Not in Isaiah 53. Are you claiming that Jesus was wrong when He applied Isaiah 53 to Himself? Do you believe that Philip was wrong when he said that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus?
And how in Isaiah 53 can the suffering servant be Israel when the suffering servant is rendering Himself as a guilt offering for the transgression of the people (Israel) for whom the stroke was due? The suffering servant bore the sin of many (Israel) and interceded for the transgressors. Israel can not intercede for Israel.
As Messianic Jew Michael Brown says in 'Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus' vol. 3, p. 41,
The servant of the Lord (Hebrew, 'ebed') is mentioned a total of seventeen times in Isaiah 40-51, sometimes with reference to the nation Israel as a whole (41:8-9; twice in 42:19; 43:10; twice in 44:21; 45:4; 48:20), and sometimes with reference to a righteous individual within the nation (49:3, 5-7; 50:10). In several verses, it is not clear whether an individual or the nation (or a righteous remmant within the nation) is referred to, although a good case can be made for the individual interpretation (42:1; 44:1-2). Significantly, the most personal specific, individual language is found in Isaiah 52:13 and 53:11, roughly the beginning and the end of this glorious prophetic passage. Reviewing the data just presented, we can see something very important. The references to the servant as a people actually end with Isaiah 48:20, while the references to the servant as an individual come into indisputable focus beginning with Isaiah 49 and continuing through the end of chapter 53.
In some places the servant doe refer to a people, while in other places, the whole of chapter 53, the servant refers to an individual who intercede on behalf of the transgressors (Israel).
Once again, both Philip and Jesus said Isaiah 53 referred to Him. With that being the case, the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 cannot be referring to Israel.
This is the passage that Mike555 and jimmiej are referring to:
Acts 8:26-35 26 Now an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, saying, "Arise and go toward the south along the road which goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza." This is desert. 27 So he arose and went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge of all her treasury, and had come to Jerusalem to worship, 28 was returning. And sitting in his chariot, he was reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go near and overtake this chariot." 30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this: "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter;
And as a lamb before its shearer is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away,
And who will declare His generation?
For His life is taken from the earth." 34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, "I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?" 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.
This passage does make it extremely clear that Jesus is in view in Isaiah 53.
Explain this then:
10 And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
What was written of Jesus alone was not written of the Jews in general. Jesus died for the sins of the world. The Jews did not. Jesus interceded on our behalf. The Jews did not. Isaiah 53 is about Jesus, not the Jews as a group.
In context Isaiah 53 is about the nation of Israel going astray and Jesus is the redemption for them - he is THEIR LAMB, the nation of Israel who were set apart to be witnesses to the nations/bless the nations were rebellious and the prophecies relate to this.
It relates to the Israel of God being brought together in Christ from those that were scattered throughout the nations.
Isa 52:1 Awake! Awake! Put on your strength, Zion; put on your beautiful robes, O Jerusalem, the holy city. For never again shall uncircumcised and unclean ones come to you.
Isa 52:2 Shake yourself from the dust; rise up! Sit, Jerusalem; free yourself from your neck bands, O captive daughter of Zion.
Isa 52:3 For so says Jehovah: You were sold for nothing, and you will not be redeemed with silver.
Isa 52:4 For so says the Lord Jehovah: My people went down to Egypt at the first, to reside there, and without cause Assyria oppressed him.
Isa 52:5 So then what is to Me here, declares Jehovah? For My people is taken for nothing; those ruling howl, declares Jehovah. And My name is continually despised, every day.
Isa 52:6 So My people shall know My name thus in that day; for I am He speaking. Behold Me!
Isa 52:7 How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of him proclaiming good news, making peace heard, bearing tidings of good, making heard salvation, saying to Zion, Your God reigns.
Isa 52:8 The voice of your watchmen, they lift the voice together, they sing aloud. For they shall see eye to eye when Jehovah brings back Zion.
Isa 52:9 Break out, sing together, waste places of Jerusalem; for Jehovah comforts His people; He has redeemed Jerusalem.
Isa 52:10 Jehovah has bared His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
Isa 52:11 Turn! Turn! Go out from there! Touch not the unclean! Go out of her midst, purify yourselves, bearers of the vessels of Jehovah.
Isa 52:12 For you shall not go out with haste, nor will you go by flight; for Jehovah is going before you, and the God of Israel gathers you.
Also it says that was because of the transgression of Gods people that he was stricken. Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
I notice you ignored the verses that say the son of man is the holy ones of the Most High.
Phillip may have been with Jesus but Jesus only reveals Himself to those who keep His commandments.
Remember the disciples didn't understand what Jesus was saying a lot of the time because He spoke in figures of speech.
The reference to the Son of Man in Daniel 7:13 to which you referred in post #21 is to Jesus, not to the holy ones of the Most High in verse 18. And it has nothing to do with Isaiah 53.
Philip's contact with the Ethiopian Eunuch was after Jesus had been resurrected and after the Holy Spirit had been given to the church and had given the disciples the understanding they needed to carry out their commission. Your implied statement that Philip didn't carry out the Lord's commandments has no basis whatsoever and is simply another feeble attempt to dismiss what Philip said.
You're a new poster but you sound suspiciously like the user Peacegiver.
Israel was a fallen people at the time. Once they turn and serve individually they are freed by the son who they become by serving the Father. Jesus was not referring to Himself when He spoke in the first person. He was referring to those who become the son, the servant of God. That is why He also spoke in the third person.
Phillip had no clue.
Daniel 7:13
As I watched in the night visions, I saw one like a son of man coming with the clouds of heaven. And he came to the Ancient One and was presented before him. 14 ]To him was given dominion and glory and kingship, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away, and his kingship is one that shall never be destroyed. 15 As for me, Daniel, my spirit was troubled within me, and the visions of my head terrified me. 16 I approached one of the attendants to ask him the truth concerning all this. So he said that he would disclose to me the interpretation of the matter: 17 "As for these four great beasts, four kings shall arise out of the earth. 18 But the holy ones of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever—forever and ever."
I agree with you that it is about a corporate son, which is the same thing that a Paul says about the body of Christ. Christ is not just a different name of Jesus.
Also I have thought that these passages relate to Hosea 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
Hos 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Mat 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
In context Isaiah 53 is about the nation of Israel going astray and Jesus is the redemption for them - he is THEIR LAMB, the nation of Israel who were set apart to be witnesses to the nations/bless the nations were rebellious and the prophecies relate to this.
It relates to the Israel of God being brought together in Christ from those that were scattered throughout the nations.
Isa 52:1 Awake! Awake! Put on your strength, Zion; put on your beautiful robes, O Jerusalem, the holy city. For never again shall uncircumcised and unclean ones come to you.
Isa 52:2 Shake yourself from the dust; rise up! Sit, Jerusalem; free yourself from your neck bands, O captive daughter of Zion.
Isa 52:3 For so says Jehovah: You were sold for nothing, and you will not be redeemed with silver.
Isa 52:4 For so says the Lord Jehovah: My people went down to Egypt at the first, to reside there, and without cause Assyria oppressed him.
Isa 52:5 So then what is to Me here, declares Jehovah? For My people is taken for nothing; those ruling howl, declares Jehovah. And My name is continually despised, every day.
Isa 52:6 So My people shall know My name thus in that day; for I am He speaking. Behold Me!
Isa 52:7 How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of him proclaiming good news, making peace heard, bearing tidings of good, making heard salvation, saying to Zion, Your God reigns.
Isa 52:8 The voice of your watchmen, they lift the voice together, they sing aloud. For they shall see eye to eye when Jehovah brings back Zion.
Isa 52:9 Break out, sing together, waste places of Jerusalem; for Jehovah comforts His people; He has redeemed Jerusalem.
Isa 52:10 Jehovah has bared His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.
Isa 52:11 Turn! Turn! Go out from there! Touch not the unclean! Go out of her midst, purify yourselves, bearers of the vessels of Jehovah.
Isa 52:12 For you shall not go out with haste, nor will you go by flight; for Jehovah is going before you, and the God of Israel gathers you.
Also it says that was because of the transgression of Gods people that he was stricken. Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
So you're agreeing that the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is Jesus.
I spoke to soon. It appears from post #38 that you think the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is a corporate son and does not refer to Jesus alone.
In Isaiah 53 the suffering servant intercedes for the transgressors. The transgressors in context refers to Israel. One who intercedes intervenes on behalf of others. Israel cannot intercede for Israel. Nor could Israel bear the sin of many and intercede for them.
As Messianic Jew Michael Brown says in 'Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus' vol. 3, p. 41,
The servant of the Lord (Hebrew, 'ebed') is mentioned a total of seventeen times in Isaiah 40-51, sometimes with reference to the nation Israel as a whole (41:8-9; twice in 42:19; 43:10; twice in 44:21; 45:4; 48:20), and sometimes with reference to a righteous individual within the nation (49:3, 5-7; 50:10). In several verses, it is not clear whether an individual or the nation (or a righteous remmant within the nation) is referred to, although a good case can be made for the individual interpretation (42:1; 44:1-2). Significantly, the most personal specific, individual language is found in Isaiah 52:13 and 53:11, roughly the beginning and the end of this glorious prophetic passage. Reviewing the data just presented, we can see something very important. The references to the servant as a people actually end with Isaiah 48:20, while the references to the servant as an individual come into indisputable focus beginning with Isaiah 49 and continuing through the end of chapter 53.
And are you simply going to ignore the fact that Jesus stated that Isaiah 53 had to be fulfilled in Him? Are you going to disregard the fact that Philip stated that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus?
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-05-2017 at 04:22 PM..
Christianism is syncretistic in nature, and there is no doubt that it has borrowed various aspects of other religions, making it their own.
If you can't directly address an issue then don't waste my time. The issue is that Isaiah 53 disproves the claims made by some that Jesus could not have died for our sins.
Your comment above in no way addresses that issue.
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