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So you're agreeing that the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is Jesus.
I spoke to soon. It appears from post #38 that you think the suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is a corporate son and does not refer to Jesus alone.
In Isaiah 53 the suffering servant intercedes for the transgressors. The transgressors in context refers to Israel. One who intercedes intervenes on behalf of others. Israel cannot intercede for Israel. Nor could Israel bear the sin of many and intercede for them.
As Messianic Jew Michael Brown says in 'Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus' vol. 3, p. 41,
The servant of the Lord (Hebrew, 'ebed') is mentioned a total of seventeen times in Isaiah 40-51, sometimes with reference to the nation Israel as a whole (41:8-9; twice in 42:19; 43:10; twice in 44:21; 45:4; 48:20), and sometimes with reference to a righteous individual within the nation (49:3, 5-7; 50:10). In several verses, it is not clear whether an individual or the nation (or a righteous remmant within the nation) is referred to, although a good case can be made for the individual interpretation (42:1; 44:1-2). Significantly, the most personal specific, individual language is found in Isaiah 52:13 and 53:11, roughly the beginning and the end of this glorious prophetic passage. Reviewing the data just presented, we can see something very important. The references to the servant as a people actually end with Isaiah 48:20, while the references to the servant as an individual come into indisputable focus beginning with Isaiah 49 and continuing through the end of chapter 53.
And are you simply going to ignore the fact that Jesus stated that Isaiah 53 had to be fulfilled in Him? Are you going to disregard the fact that Philip stated that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus?
It seems to me that the first fruit are one with Christ, they have the same duties, responsibilities, sufferings, purpose.
God raised Jesus the man, by the spirit ..... Christ is the first fruit, the head of the BODY .... all Jesus disciples suffer the same.... it will take 3 days (3000) to raise the body
It has been 2 days, and the 3rd day (millenium) the body will be raised
1Co 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead; He became the firstfruit of those having fallen asleep.
1Co 15:21 For since death is through man, also through a Man is a resurrection of the dead;
1Co 15:22 for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruit; afterward those of Christ at His coming.
1Co 15:24 Then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father, when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For it is right for Him to reign until He puts all the hostile ones under His feet; Psa. 110:1
1Co 15:26 the last hostile thing made to cease is death.
1Co 15:27 For "He subjected all things under His feet;" but when He says that all things have been subjected, it is plain that it excepts Him who has subjected all things to Him. Psa. 8:6
1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all things in all.
Rev 2:26 And the one overcoming, and the one keeping My works until the end, "I will give to him authority over the nations,"
Rev 2:27 and "He will shepherd them with an iron staff" (they are "broken to pieces like clay vessels"), as I also have received from My Father. Psa. 2:8, 9
Christianism is syncretistic in nature, and there is no doubt that it has borrowed various aspects of other religions, making it their own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
If you can't directly address an issue then don't waste my time. The issue is that Isaiah 53 disproves the claims made by some that Jesus could not have died for our sins.
Your comment above in no way addresses that issue.
He died because of them (i.e., false accusations), not for them.
It seems to me that the first fruit are one with Christ, they have the same duties, responsibilities, sufferings, purpose.
God raised Jesus the man, by the spirit ..... Christ is the first fruit, the head of the BODY .... all Jesus disciples suffer the same.... it will take 3 days (3000) to raise the body
It has been 2 days, and the 3rd day (millenium) the body will be raised
1Co 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead; He became the firstfruit of those having fallen asleep.
1Co 15:21 For since death is through man, also through a Man is a resurrection of the dead;
1Co 15:22 for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruit; afterward those of Christ at His coming.
1Co 15:24 Then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father, when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For it is right for Him to reign until He puts all the hostile ones under His feet; Psa. 110:1
1Co 15:26 the last hostile thing made to cease is death.
1Co 15:27 For "He subjected all things under His feet;" but when He says that all things have been subjected, it is plain that it excepts Him who has subjected all things to Him. Psa. 8:6
1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all things in all.
Rev 2:26 And the one overcoming, and the one keeping My works until the end, "I will give to him authority over the nations,"
Rev 2:27 and "He will shepherd them with an iron staff" (they are "broken to pieces like clay vessels"), as I also have received from My Father. Psa. 2:8, 9
But take a look at what Isaiah 53 is actually saying about the suffering servant and what He is doing on behalf of the transgressors.
The suffering servant was stricken, smitten of God and pierced through for OUR transgressions. He was crushed for OUR iniquities. The chastening for OUR well-being fell upon Him. The LORD cause the iniquity of us all to fall on Him. He took the stroke (of punishment) that was due the people for their trangressions. The LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief if He would render Himself as a guilt offering. He poured Himself out to death bearing the sin of many, interceding for the transgressors.
All of the above is stated in Isaiah 53 and none of it can possibly apply to Israel. But all of it applies perfectly to Jesus.
In no way did Israel ever intercede for the transgressors bearing the sin of the transgressors. And how could they in light of passages such as Ezekiel 18:20 and Psalm 49:7 which state that no man can redeem his brother. However, Jesus was Himself without sin and was sent into the world as a member of the human race for the purpose of going to the cross which qualified Him and Him alone to go to the cross to die for our sins.
Nothing about Isaiah 53 implies or warrants a national interpretation. And I must stress again that the apostle Philip stated that Isaiah 53 was about Jesus, and that Jesus Himself said that it must be fulfilled in Him. Isaiah 53 is strictly a Messianic prophecy about Jesus.
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-05-2017 at 05:39 PM..
"The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
Matt. 26:28
"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."
Yes. A ransom implies a price being paid on behalf of another. As well, the specific Greek word which is translated as 'for' in Matt. 20:28 is ἀντὶ - anti, and it means 'in place of,' 'instead of,' 'for.' It is the most direct statement of substitution in which Jesus died FOR our sins.
In Isaiah 53 the suffering servant intercedes for the transgressors. The transgressors in context refers to Israel. One who intercedes intervenes on behalf of others. Israel cannot intercede for Israel. Nor could Israel bear the sin of many and intercede for them.
Why not? According to your particular view that Jesus is God.
Wouldn’t that make God his own servant?
Quote:
As Messianic Jew Michael Brown says in 'Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus' vol. 3, p. 41,
The servant of the Lord (Hebrew, 'ebed') is mentioned a total of seventeen times in Isaiah 40-51, sometimes with reference to the nation Israel as a whole (41:8-9; twice in 42:19; 43:10; twice in 44:21; 45:4; 48:20), and sometimes with reference to a righteous individual within the nation (49:3, 5-7; 50:10). In several verses, it is not clear whether an individual or the nation (or a righteous remnant within the nation) is referred to, although a good case can be made for the individual interpretation (42:1; 44:1-2). Significantly, the most personal specific, individual language is found in Isaiah 52:13 and 53:11, roughly the beginning and the end of this glorious prophetic passage. Reviewing the data just presented, we can see something very important. The references to the servant as a people actually end with Isaiah 48:20, while the references to the servant as an individual come into indisputable focus beginning with Isaiah 49 and continuing through the end of chapter 53.
In the original Hebrew texts, there are no chapter divisions.
Thus, it appears to be one continuous thought regarding Israel?
Quote:
And are you simply going to ignore the fact that Jesus stated that Isaiah 53 had to be fulfilled in Him? Are you going to disregard the fact that Philip stated that Isaiah 53 referred to Jesus?
Perhaps, you are ignoring other factors from a preconceived theology?
It's always easier to say something, and then apply it - after it is known?
Why not? According to your particular view that Jesus is God.
Wouldn’t that make God his own servant?
In the original Hebrew texts, there are no chapter divisions.
Thus, it appears to be one continuous thought regarding Israel?
Perhaps, you are ignoring other factors from a preconceived theology?
It's always easier to say something, and then apply it - after it is known?
The fact that there were no chapter and verse divisions in the original Hebrew and Greek texts do not argue for one continuous thought being presented in a passage.
The Biblical writers state outright that Jesus is God, and Mark in particular emphasizes Jesus as the servant. The Son came into the world to do the will of the Father.
"The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
Matt. 26:28
"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."
That's what someone said that he said...
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