Did Jesus lie? (disciple, Jesus Christ, Israel, verse)

[Condemned]

CG81 could it be that the writer of Second Peter had to come up with that spin because Christians were promoting the idea that their Jesus was coming back real soon? You can't blame people for understanding the word "soon" to mean exactly what it means - SOON. I'm sure when all those years began to roll by, the critics came out of the woodwork and in true Christian fashion, their PR people had to come up with some creative answers.

'God is NOT willing that any should perish' as a reason why Jesus is holding back? Has God checked the stats in the past 2,000 years? Far more people have perished "without the lord" than those who have been saved not to mention the countless billions upon billions BEFORE Jesus.

[cg81]

Originally Posted by Condemned

......Peter had to come up with that spin........

The problem with picking and choosing which scriptures are valid, is that we can then believe whatever we want.

It is very dangerous to go down that road, and there is no need to. If we are interested in truth, if we truly ask, seek, and knock, we will find out that the message in the Bible is clear and fits together in a beautiful way.

[gwynedd1]

Originally Posted by Preterist

Greetings Gwynedd1: How do you reconcile 1 Peter 4:7 with your concept of time: "The end of all things is at hand."

Also, Ephesians 1:21 is one of the mello verses. The Greek text actually reads en to mellonti. There is no verb "to come." The verbal idea is found in the time indicator mello in its dative, singular, participial form. The verse basically says "Not only in this age, but en the about to one." Again, there is no verb "to come" but only the concept of an age that was then about to be!

I agree that Revelation is probably not in chronological order. I do not agree, however, with your assessment of the words "shortly" and "near." Your analogy of having a family has this difficulty. The time indicators of the Revelation do not speak of the initiation of having something and then the progression of that possession. Shortly and near speak of the complete happening of something not the beginning of it and the progression of it.

Revelation 1:1 reads "ha dei genesthai en tachei." Dei is in the present and speaks of inevitability--without a doubt to be. The things John was shown were at that time then inevitable to take place shortly. Not to begin to take place and continue to take place, but to take place. They were inevitable to be (genesthai) shortly.

In Luke 21:28 Jesus said: "Now when these things begin to happen" Mark used the words "archomenon" (begin) and the same word found in Revelation 1:1--genesthai. The meaning is "begin to happen" or "being to be." This demonstrates how easy it would have been for John to indicate that the things he was to be shown were about to "begin" (archo) to happen. That is not the case. The things which John was shown were to shortly come to pass--not begin to come to pass.

Any thoughts on answering the critics concerning Matthew 10, 16, 24 and Mark 13?

Thanks Gwynedd1!

Preterist

Hi Preterist,

Perhaps for now I will stick with what the end of all things means to me and how I view 1 Peter. I believe its contextual. To that audience it was the end of all things. The end times was always referring to the vision explained in Daniel 9 which was about Jews. They had 70 Sabbatical years. There are references everywhere about the latter days but the latter days of the Jews. Gentiles were certainly brought into the fold but most of the focus was on Israel in its latter times.



Notice how the mountain shall be established. Mount Zion was right outside the wall in that day.

Micah 4

Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the LORD’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And peoples shall flow to it.
2 Many nations shall come and say,

“ Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion the law shall go forth,
And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 He shall judge between many peoples,
And rebuke strong nations afar off;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.[a]
4 But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree,
And no one shall make them afraid;
For the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken.
5 For all people walk each in the name of his god,
But we will walk in the name of the LORD our God
Forever and ever.

There seems to appear after the end of the latter days other events or as I see the new heavens and new earth.

For those that argue that Jews here on earth even exist biblically speaking its simply not possible. Without the Law there are no Jews and without the priesthood there is no Law. No one can trace back to Aaron , there are no decedents of Zadok to consecrate the temple. Modern Judaism is in name only that bears no resemblance culturally, racially or religiously to Jews in Jesus day. That was their end.


Jerusalem centric access to the father is the essence of Judaism and is was going away to a spiritual mountain.

John 4

21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

It is interesting how many people go into the OT only and try to "figure it out". Did Jesus not come to tell us?

25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”

Hebrews 12

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Thus the end is the end of Judaism on earth taken to heaven and the establishment of a new earth. IMHO

[Huckleberry3911948]

im nuts about CS Lewis had to read your post 2 times to figure out what you were defending.
i am not interested in the after life or 2nd coming bek i got my work all cut out for me right here right now. i have found if i do a real good job of taking care of now ----yesterday and tomarrow are covered 100%.
my faith does that for me, practical simple direct brutal stark but very very functional, (sort of like soviet weapons).
in the words of CS lewis, life is a terrible teacher like a mallet that smashes down its lessons with terrible force, but we learn.

[Condemned]

Originally Posted by cg81

The problem with picking and choosing which scriptures are valid, is that we can then believe whatever we want.

It is very dangerous to go down that road, and there is no need to. If we are interested in truth, if we truly ask, seek, and knock, we will find out that the message in the Bible is clear and fits together in a beautiful way.

I'm not picking anything CG. I'm simply taking what is before me and understanding it "as is."

[cg81]

Originally Posted by Condemned

I'm simply taking what is before me and understanding it "as is."

Good.. so then you believe this?

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

[gwynedd1]

Originally Posted by Condemned

CG81 could it be that the writer of Second Peter had to come up with that spin because Christians were promoting the idea that their Jesus was coming back real soon? You can't blame people for understanding the word "soon" to mean exactly what it means - SOON. I'm sure when all those years began to roll by, the critics came out of the woodwork and in true Christian fashion, their PR people had to come up with some creative answers.

'God is NOT willing that any should perish' as a reason why Jesus is holding back? Has God checked the stats in the past 2,000 years? Far more people have perished "without the lord" than those who have been saved not to mention the countless billions upon billions BEFORE Jesus.

Hi Condemned,

I agree the fundamental screw up of all time is a literal kingdom on earth with some king of top down rule just like a Gentile kingdom. The Jews were the first to ********** up and then many Christians after them ate the same vomit.
Even though in several places this is made clear and no mention of an earthly kingdom is made. In the New Testament there is not one but many scriptures that reject the idea.

Hebrews 11

3 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,[c] embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

Also Luke 17:20, John 4, John 14, Galatians 4, Hebrews 12-13, Acts 7, Revelation 12 but all day long people will dig up Old Testament scriptures paying no regard that the Messiah will reveal everything in his time as to what they mean. They cannot produce in New Testament scripture to support it. Who knows how it ends at half time?

That is the meaning of Revelation

Luke 2

29 “ Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace,
According to Your word;
30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation
31 Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples,
32 A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles,
And the glory of Your people Israel.”

[Condemned]

Originally Posted by cg81

Good.. so then you believe this?

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

No, but if I take the Bible as is what does this have to do with the subject, Cg? Frankly I don't agree with Preterist's conclusions of the same scriptures also. I just agree with her that Christians who hold that Jesus is still on the way from his 2,000 years (plus) journey are doing a disservice to their own scriptures.

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by Preterist

Yes, Jesus did NOT lie and could not lie. Yet critics look at His words and look at how the modern church interprets them as accuse Him of lying and accuse the Church of believing that He lied. If He did not lie (as I also believe He did not), what did He mean when He said He would come in that first-century generation? (Matthew 24:29ff). How does the Church explain why it does not take Jesus at His word?

What did Jesus mean in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 where He promised to come in that generation?

What did He mean in Matthew 10:22-23 where He told His disciples right there with Him that He would return before they personally were able to go through all the cities of Israel?

What did He mean in Matthew 16:27-28 when He said He would return before some of them right there with Him would die?

The skeptics (atheists, liberals, Jews, and Muslims) take Jesus' words literally and look at the modern church's insistence that Christ has not yet returned and call Jesus a false prophet, His disciples false teachers, and Christianity a false religion!

If we insist, in spite of Christ's clear words, that He has not yet returned as He promised, how do we answer the critics?

Preterist

If we insist, in spite of Christ's clear words, that He has not yet returned as He promised, how do we answer the critics?

We do not insist that He has returned, except those He wishes to reveal Himself to, while alive in the flesh. All others will wait until they are dead in the flesh, which IF they are alive, will be SOON.

Once a person is anointed with the Spirit, has Christ returned to that person? Of course. It is called an indwelling of the Spirit. This is no different than when Jesus said, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. They are One, as we are One with them.

Jesus said:

Mat 7:7
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.


This is no different than what God said in the OT:

Deu 4:29
"But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find {Him} if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.

1Ch 28:9
"As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts. If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

Pro 8:17
"I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me.

Jer 29:13
'You will seek Me and find {Me} when you search for Me with all your heart.


So, here we are. We have many people from ALL religions, from ALL walks of life, from the rich, the poor, the humble, and the proud. Label it, pick it, but in the end, ALL it takes is what He has already asked of us. SEEK, LOVE, KNOCK with a pure heart, and He promises you, He will let YOU FIND HIM.

Jesus also had the Truth for the "religious" of the day.

Jhn 7:34
"You will seek Me, and will not find Me; and where I am, you cannot come."

Ouch! What was it they were missing? Jesus explains it right here!

Jhn 7:37
Now on the last day, the great {day} of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' " But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet {given,} because Jesus was not yet glorified.

[cg81]

Originally Posted by Condemned

No, but if I take the Bible as is what does this have to do with the subject, Cg?

If you took the Bible as is, you would believe it!

It has everything to do with the subject.

According to Preterist, that event has happened already.