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Old 02-23-2009, 05:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Hello again Shiloh,

The only problem I have with your idea about the 45 days being a time of celebration of the wedding feast is those 45 days are when the temple is cleansed.


btw, I am very glad we see eye to eye on the rapture as coming here to the earth, not heaven.
If the tribulation ends at the 2520th day of the second 3&1/2 yrs (1260 days which to me in Daniel equals the 1290th day)* and 45 days later is the 1335th day when the Kingdom Age begins when in your estimation does the wedding take place on earth?

I did not mean to say that the whole 45 days was the wedding feast but that somtime during it. I think the cleanising and the judgment take place as well as some other factors for preperation.

The reason is that the 1290th day is from the point of the when the daily sacrifes are stopped (breaking of the covenant) which is 30 days prior to the mid point of the tribulation until the abomonation of desolation.

*[-----------------mid pont-------------------------------]

1230th ------------1260th ---------------------------1260/90

Last edited by Shiloh1; 02-23-2009 at 05:27 PM..
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Old 02-23-2009, 05:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richio View Post
I've been sort of keeping an eye on this thread - but not following too closely.
This reply by mshipmate caught my eye:

It brought this verse to mind pertaining to the temple in heaven (of which the one on earth is a shadow). It seems significant.
And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one was able to enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were finished.
Rev 15:8
I believe this is speaking of after the resurrection/rapture - but (of course) before the bowls were finished being poured out.

Somewhere in Joshua it is written of having to wait for the removal of "enemies" before entering the land to inhabit it.

I do believe you are perhaps correct about the 45 day time period being for the bowls.
I noticed... there was a blessing for those who could survive to the end of day 1335 (from the time of the AofD).

Here's the part where I pursue a tangent which may be of interest...

I believe these are the portion of the elect still yet un-reborn.
Waiting to see the one whom they have pierced - that they might be saved. (Zec 12:10)
The portion of the elect still in the flesh (post rapture) - for whose sake the days must be cut short, lest they not survive. (Mat 24:22)

I believe this is the woman - protected in the desert from the reach of the anti-Christ while he persecutes the Christians.
I'm speaking of the portion of the Jacob, the elect (Isaiah 45:4 - referring to the whole house of Israel) still in need of salvation to fulfill: "all Israel shall be saved)...
Remnants from the southern kingdom, the house Judah...
The first to hear the good news, yet the last to be brought in.

...Finally able to believe in their own Messiah.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved:
Romans 11:25,26
It has been said that Messiah is this "Breaker" - come to break them out of the sheep pen.
I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel;
I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold:
they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men.
The breaker is come up before them: they have broken up, and have passed through the gate, and are gone out by it:
and their king shall pass before them, and the LORD on the head of them.
Micah 2:12,13

Who is this who comes from Edom, With garments of glowing colors from Bozrah,
This One who is majestic in His apparel, Marching in the greatness of His strength?
"It is I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save."
Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?
"I have trodden the wine trough alone, And from the peoples there was no man with Me.
I also trod them in My anger And trampled them in My wrath; And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments, And I stained all My raiment.
"For the day of vengeance was in My heart, And My year of redemption has come.
Isaiah 63:1-4
* Bozrah (meaning "sheep pen") - an ancient city near Petra in southern Jordan.

Quote:
The portion of the elect still in the flesh (post rapture) - for whose sake the days must be cut short, lest they not survive. (Mat 24:22)


Richio,
I'm puzzled by this remark: "elect still in the flesh (post rapture). I don't understand?

Q.Are you saying the elect will still be in their flesh bodies AFTER the rapture?


And this remark:"for whose sake the days must be cut short, lest they not survive. (Mat 24:22)"

It is the tribulation that is cut short for the elect's sake.

Q. What is it you think they have to survive?

Quote:
I'm speaking of the portion of the Jacob, the elect (Isaiah 45:4 - referring to the whole house of Israel) still in need of salvation to fulfill: "all Israel shall be saved)...
Remnants from the southern kingdom, the house Judah...
In regards to the two things I have high-lighted. I notice you say, 'whole house of Israel,' and yet you also say 'remnants.' The word remnant means 'few.' So I'm confused as to what you are saying?
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Old 02-23-2009, 07:02 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,644,952 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
If the tribulation ends at the 2520th day of the second 3&1/2 yrs (1260 days which to me in Daniel equals the 1290th day)* and 45 days later is the 1335th day when the Kingdom Age begins when in your estimation does the wedding take place on earth?

I did not mean to say that the whole 45 days was the wedding feast but that somtime during it. I think the cleanising and the judgment take place as well as some other factors for preperation.

The reason is that the 1290th day is from the point of the when the daily sacrifes are stopped (breaking of the covenant) which is 30 days prior to the mid point of the tribulation until the abomonation of desolation.

*[-----------------mid pont-------------------------------]

1230th ------------1260th ---------------------------1260/90
I am thinking the 'confusion,' for lack of a better word, for me, is your use of the word 'feast.' Please know I'm not trying to 'split hairs' here.

I just say that because the Bible uses the word 'supper,' The marriage supper, not marriage feast.

The meaning of supper is: "dinner, the chief meal," and the word 'feast' means a festival. See the difference?

So to me, and I sure could be wrong here .. the supper happens instantly, as we are changed, and descending to the earth, etc etc. It doesn't go on on for an indefinite amount of time as a festival would. Make sense?

So to anwer your question. I believe it happens somewhere between meeting the Lord in the air and touching down on the earth.

Last edited by mshipmate; 02-23-2009 at 07:10 PM.. Reason: correct spelling
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Old 02-23-2009, 07:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
I am thinking the 'confusion,' for lack of a better word, for me, is your use of the word 'feast.' Please know I'm not trying to 'split hairs' here.

I just say that because the Bible uses the word 'supper,' The marriage supper, not marriage feast.

The meaning of supper is: "dinner, the chief meal," and the word 'feast' means a festival. See the difference?

So to me, and I sure could be wrong here .. the supper happens instantly, as we are changed, and descending to the earth, etc etc. It doesn't go on on for an
indefinite amount of time as a festival would. Make sense?

So to anwere your question. I believe it happens somewhere between meeting the Lord in the air and touching down on the earth.
Alright that is what I thought. I meant to use the word feast as in a dinner. But if in is instantaneous why use the term dinner or supper?

That was the point I was making about the rapture being in a moment in the twinkling of any eye - there is not celebration like in a marriage supper. I think the marriage supper is a short celebration but certainly not somthing that happens in twinkling of an eye. Paul in both passages (I Cor.15 and I Thess.4) is talking about resurrection so I take the rapture as an aspect of the resurrection - a preperation for the wedding supper. The Bride will then be ready for the marriage supper because she has been glorified Rev.19:7-9. I think the marriage happens in an instant but the supper is the celebration. See Matt.23:6; Mark 6:21, 12:39; Luke 14:12-24, 20:46; John 13:2-4, 21:20, I Cor.11:20-21.
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Old 02-23-2009, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
[/color]

Richio,
I'm puzzled by this remark: "elect still in the flesh (post rapture). I don't understand?

Q.Are you saying the elect will still be in their flesh bodies AFTER the rapture?


And this remark:"for whose sake the days must be cut short, lest they not survive. (Mat 24:22)"

It is the tribulation that is cut short for the elect's sake.

Q. What is it you think they have to survive?



In regards to the two things I have high-lighted. I notice you say, 'whole house of Israel,' and yet you also say 'remnants.' The word remnant means 'few.' So I'm confused as to what you are saying?
People tend to think of Jews and Israel as meaning the same thing.
But it’s a generalization which obscures some of what Scripture has to say.

In 1Kings 11, the nation of Israel was divided into two kingdoms.
The house of Israel to the north and the house of Judah to the south.

Israel (the kingdom of Israel) consisted of about 10 tribes.
(It gets confusing because Jacob adopted Joseph’s two sons Ephraim and Manasseh.)
Judah lived in Judea and while they were called “Judah” they consisted of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and part of Levi.

The northern kingdom abandoned God and went whole heartedly into idolatry.
Eventually, He gave them a writ of divorce. (Jeremiah 3)
…And banished them into Assyria where they were eventually dispersed among the nations. (2Kings 17)
Having integrated with the nations – they lost their identity and never returned to the land of Israel as a people.

Later, Judah, “Jews”, the house of Judah - was sent into Babylon, but they returned 70 years later.

When these two kingdoms had been together (and as a whole), they were “the whole house of Israel”.
So Israel can refer to the whole house (all the tribes) or just the northern kingdom. (10 tribes)
You can often tell by the context, but sometimes the whole house of Israel is prophetically called “Jacob”.

These distinctions are used only in the Old Testament with one exception.(well, actually two)
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Matthew 15:24
Have you ever wondered why the “Jewish” Messiah should now all of a sudden open salvation to everyone?
This is why.
He was seeking the house of Israel which had been lost among the nations.
Since the house of Israel had been cut off, gentiles can now join to the tree, by faith.
"Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are on the sinful kingdom, And I will destroy it from the face of the earth; Nevertheless, I will not totally destroy the house of Jacob," Declares the LORD.
"For behold, I am commanding, And I will shake the house of Israel among all nations As grain is shaken in a sieve, But not a kernel will fall to the ground

Amos 9:8,9
We assume that “the elect” refers to Christians, but the first instance of it refers to Jacob – meaning the whole house of Israel.
Here we see that the elect refers to Jacob - all the tribes.
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isaiah 45:4
During the time of the tribulation, Jews who flee when they see the abomination, go into the desert and out of the reach of the anti-Christ. (Rev 12)
They are a remnant of the house of Judah, but representative nevertheless.

Because they are not yet born again, they will not be changed in the rapture, but will have to endure the turmoil of the bowls.
The bowls – if allowed to have full impact would destroy every living thing on earth, and so for the sake of this portion of the elect, the days must be cut short.

Christians will already have resurrected bodies and not even the second death will have power over them.
Besides, we’ll be “in the air”.

The only ones who are still vulnerable during the bowls – are those identified as the woman in the desert – that remnant of Jews who will see Jesus when He comes to get them.
Then they shall believe and be brought into an everlasting relationship with Him.

To answer your questions:
Only that portion (non-Messianic Jews) will still be in the flesh after the rapture.
(Messianic Jews are in Christ, so they will be raptured.)
Jew who manage to escape the reach of the anti-Christ will have to be on earth while the bowls are poured out.
That is why it says “blessed is the one who reaches the end of 1335 days."
They are protected from the anti-Christ, but the bowls will have a devastating effect.

I hope this clear things up for you.
These are concepts not taught, but they are in Scripture.

Note: In no way do I believe that the lost tribes of Israel remained cohesive - becoming modern day nations.
That just did not happen.
Nor am I saying that Jews enter heaven because they are of the lineage.
The only way into heave is Jesus, but there are promises to be fulfilled to the lineage.
He has not forgotten His own - even if only a remnant.

Last edited by Richio; 02-23-2009 at 08:17 PM.. Reason: Added Brown
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Old 02-23-2009, 08:23 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,644,952 times
Reputation: 267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richio View Post
People tend to think of Jews and Israel as meaning the same thing.
But it’s a generalization which obscures some of what Scripture has to say.

In 1Kings 11, the nation of Israel was divided into two kingdoms.
The house of Israel to the north and the house of Judah to the south.

Israel (the kingdom of Israel) consisted of about 10 tribes.
(It gets confusing because Jacob adopted Joseph’s two sons Ephraim and Manasseh.)
Judah lived in Judea and while they were called “Judah” they consisted of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and part of Levi.

The northern kingdom abandoned God and went whole heartedly into idolatry.
Eventually, He gave them a writ of divorce. (Jeremiah 3)
…And banished them into Assyria where they were eventually dispersed among the nations. (2Kings 17)
Having integrated with the nations – they lost their identity and never returned to the land of Israel as a people.

Later, Judah, “Jews”, the house of Judah - was sent into Babylon, but they returned 70 years later.

When these two kingdoms had been together (and as a whole), they were “the whole house of Israel”.
So Israel can refer to the whole house (all the tribes) or just the northern kingdom. (10 tribes)
You can often tell by the context, but sometimes the whole house of Israel is prophetically called “Jacob”.

These distinctions are used only in the Old Testament with one exception.(well, actually two)
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Matthew 15:24
Have you ever wondered why the “Jewish” Messiah should now all of a sudden open salvation to everyone?
This is why.
He was seeking the house of Israel which had been lost among the nations.
Since the house of Israel had been cut off, gentiles can now join to the tree, by faith.
"Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are on the sinful kingdom, And I will destroy it from the face of the earth; Nevertheless, I will not totally destroy the house of Jacob," Declares the LORD.
"For behold, I am commanding, And I will shake the house of Israel among all nations As grain is shaken in a sieve, But not a kernel will fall to the ground
Amos 9:8,9
We assume that “the elect” refers to Christians, but the first instance of it refers to Jacob – meaning the whole house of Israel.
Here we see that the elect refers to Jacob - all the tribes.
For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isaiah 45:4
During the time of the tribulation, Jews who flee when they see the abomination, go into the desert and out of the reach of the anti-Christ. (Rev 12)
They are a remnant of the house of Judah, but representative nevertheless.

Because they are not yet born again, they will not be changed in the rapture, but will have to endure the turmoil of the bowls.
The bowls – if allowed to have full impact would destroy every living thing on earth, and so for the sake of this portion of the elect, the days must be cut short.

Christians will already have resurrected bodies and not even the second death will have power over them.
Besides, we’ll be “in the air”.

The only ones who are still vulnerable during the bowls – are those identified as the woman in the desert – that remnant of Jews who will see Jesus when He comes to get them.
Then they shall believe and be brought into an everlasting relationship with Him.

To answer your questions:
Only that portion (non-Messianic Jews) will still be in the flesh after the rapture.
(Messianic Jews are in Christ, so they will be raptured.)
Jew who manage to escape the reach of the anti-Christ will have to be on earth while the bowls are poured out.
That is why it says “blessed is the one who reaches the end of 1335 days."
They are protected from the anti-Christ, but the bowls will have a devastating effect.

I hope this clear things up for you.
These are concepts not taught, but they are in Scripture.

Note: In no way do I believe that the lost tribes of Israel remained cohesive - becoming modern day nations.
That just did not happen.
Nor am I saying that Jews enter heaven because they are of the lineage.
The only way into heave is Jesus, but there are promises to be fulfilled to the lineage.
He has not forgotten His own - even if only a remnant.

Okay, Richio...I know all of this...from : "People tend to think of Jews and Israel as meaning the same thing.....to: "You can often tell by the context, but sometimes the whole house of Israel is prophetically called “Jacob”."

Please, no offense but I wasn't asking for a 'history lesson' since I already know/understand/ have read all of that..

What I was asking you is this: why do you think anyone will be in their flesh body AFTER the rapture when the 1,000 yr reign begins. How can anyone life, in a flesh body, for a thousand years?? Even Adam or Mathusala didn't live that long.
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Old 02-23-2009, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mshipmate View Post
Okay, Richio...I know all of this...from : "People tend to think of Jews and Israel as meaning the same thing.....to: "You can often tell by the context, but sometimes the whole house of Israel is prophetically called “Jacob”."

Please, no offense but I wasn't asking for a 'history lesson' since I already know/understand/ have read all of that..

What I was asking you is this: why do you think anyone will be in their flesh body AFTER the rapture when the 1,000 yr reign begins. How will anyone life, in a flesh body for a thousand years?? Even Adam or Mathusala didn't live that long.
I'm glad you know this. Many people don't. I apologize for assuming that you did not.
Quote:
To answer your questions:
Only that portion (non-Messianic Jews) will still be in the flesh after the rapture.

Jews who manage to escape the reach of the anti-Christ will have to be on earth while the bowls are poured out.
That is why it says “blessed is the one who reaches the end of 1335 days."
They are protected from the anti-Christ, but the bowls will have a devastating effect.
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Old 02-23-2009, 08:55 PM
 
1,534 posts, read 1,644,952 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richio View Post
I'm glad you know this. Many people don't. I apologize for assuming that you did not.
Apology accepted.

Quote:
To answer your questions:
Only that portion (non-Messianic Jews) will still be in the flesh after the rapture.

Jews who manage to escape the reach of the anti-Christ will have to be on earth while the bowls are poured out.
That is why it says “blessed is the one who reaches the end of 1335 days."
They are protected from the anti-Christ, but the bowls will have a devastating effect.
Yes, I know many people don't know it.

But we will have to agree to disagree on your quote above.

blessings,

Edited to add...I just thought of something...are you saying the elect will not be here for the bowls/vials...that just a select Jews will be? What about the silence in heaven for the 1/2 hr. That's the first 1/2 of the hour of tribulation that is to comes to try the whole world.

The vials are poured out on the ones who recieve the mark of the beast. No where does it say these are just JEWS!!

Last edited by mshipmate; 02-23-2009 at 09:22 PM..
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:08 PM
 
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The northern kingdom abandoned God and went whole heartedly into idolatry.
Eventually, He gave them a writ of divorce. (Jeremiah 3)
…And banished them into Assyria where they were eventually dispersed among the nations. (2Kings 17)
Having integrated with the nations – they lost their identity and never returned to the land of Israel as a people.

Richio in light of your above quote how do you explain Anna in Luke 2:36 - '...of the tribe of Asher.'?
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Arizona
777 posts, read 1,277,949 times
Reputation: 173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiloh1 View Post
Quote:
The northern kingdom abandoned God and went whole heartedly into idolatry.
Eventually, He gave them a writ of divorce. (Jeremiah 3)
…And banished them into Assyria where they were eventually dispersed among the nations. (2Kings 17)
Having integrated with the nations – they lost their identity and never returned to the land of Israel as a people.
Richio in light of your above quote how do you explain Anna in Luke 2:36 - '...of the tribe of Asher.'?
That's a good question, because the tribes generally remained separate so as to protect their allotted land.
There are always exceptions and I'm sure there were even instances of inter-tribe marriages.
Perhaps this was one - where Anna was of the lineage of Asher, but one of her ancestors came to live in Judea.
Perhaps it was noted in the text, because it was indeed noteworthy.
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