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The question should be, "When is the resurrection?"
We who are alive and remain (to that time) will not precede them.
The dead in Christ rise first, THEN ... [those who are alive and remain] will be changed. (1Thes 4:15-17)
The purpose of the "rapture" is not to remove Christians from witnessing even unto death, but to collect those who do manage to survive to that point in time.
The dead in Christ rise into immortal "glorified" bodies.
Then those surviving Christians pass from life into everlasting life also receiving glorified bodies.
(without tasting death)
The purpose of which (glorified bodies) is to 'house' us during the millennium and into the time of the new earth.
So...
When shall the resurrection unto life happen?
Richio: Who are the "those who are alive and remain?" Was not Paul clearly addressing THOSE first-century Thessalonians? What did his words mean to THEM? How would THEY have understood them.
Did not Paul say WE who are alive? Whom did he mean by that? He meant himself, those Thessalonians to whom he was writing, and all saints of his day! "WE [I, Paul, and you Thessalonians--WE) who are alive and remain!" In their lifetime, THEY lived to see the dead rise and THEY were caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. When did that happen? It happened in THEIR lifetime just as Jesus promised in John 14! It was to those very disciples that He promised to return--and He did!
The idea of a "pre-trib" rapture is the strongDelusion sent by God to the Christian churches who break his Law. They believe in the Lie that God will rapture them out of this World to save them from the Great Tribulation; but ironically it is precisely this belief that will seal their fate so they will not escape it.
Don't you find it absurd they believe God will rapture them out of this World "Pre-tribulation" and also resurrect the saints at the same time? Do dead people need to be saved too from the Great Tribulation?
Notice this Lie is being preached in churches that break his Law, particularly the 4th Commandments on keeping the Sabbath and the Feasts of the Lord. Those that worship on Sunday and keeping the pagan rites such as Christmas, Easter, etc. Because of willful sin their robes are dirty and God will subject them to a test of faith so they could redeem themselves! (Rev 7:13-14)
The Bible tells us that in the end time God will send his Prophet to lead the elect out to a safe place in a 2nd Great Exodus. I don't know how it will happen but I think it will have something to do with the Sabbath and the Feasts observance for one to be in the exodus. Therefore those who are waiting for the "Pre-trib" rapture, they will surely not heed the call of the Prophet!
There are several instances in the Bible where it is emphasized the elect are those who keep the 10 Commandments and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. They are the ones God will protect in the Great Tribulation until the end when they will be gathered in a Rapture.
We are already at the door of Daniel's 70th Week... we must repent and turn away from sin to be found worthy to escape the coming global cataclysm and subsequently the Great Tribulation.
_____________________________
II Thes.2 9: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
You will find Daniel's 70th week in the first century! Where is the justification for this great big gap between the 69th and 70th week? Nowhere! It is an error and fabrication created out of necessity.
Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.
2Tim 2:17,18
Believing one has missed the rapture (and therefore the resurrection), will be upsetting to some.
When things begin to be apparent that we go through the tribulation, those who have been brought in by the "gospel of the rapture" will question the validity of everything else they've been taught.
What do you suppose would cause the apostasy foretold?
Hope deferred makes the heart sick;
Prov 13:12
Proverbs 13:12 is a great verse, Richio. It applies also to those who are still looking for Christ's return. He promised to return to the generation of His day (Mat. 10; 16; 24; 26; James 5; Rev 1 and 22)! What sick hearts those of the first century must have had since Christ and the apostles promised them that He would return in their lifetime, but according to the modern church, He has still not done so! In truth and reality, He said He was returning in that generation (first), and He did!
Actually, Preterist, I did answer you, but as I stated...you don't listen! You are so positive you are right that you can't see the forest for the trees!
But I will show you one more time...The answer is right here...
2Thess 1:5 ¶ Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
God's righteous judgement has not happened yet. It is in the future. It's called the white throne judgement.
They are worthy of the kingdom and will be part of it after God judges the 'earth. '
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
God WILL recompense those that trouble them when He judges everyone at the WTJ.
7 And to you who are troubled (the Thess.) rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
*rest with us...wait patienly....
What happens when Jesus is revealed? (revealed means to take the cover off) The Thess. will recieve their reward(s) when Christ returns.
8 In *flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
* Our God is a consuming fire. A fire that will consume His enemies and refine His elect. That refining, btw is part of their reward(s).
Zec 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
Now if you can't see that then what can I say. It's written plainly enough for a child to see and understand.
Greetings mshipmate: Would you please, in all fairness, stop saying that I am so sure I am right that I do not listen. Could you not be accused of doing the same thing? I do listen--to determine whether what is written is biblical. We all think we are right. So let's be fair, okay? The issue should be "What saith the Scriptures." Do we try with all the ability we possess to ascertain what a passage is really teaching by considering the full context, the audience relevance, and the historical setting? Are we willing to accept what a passage says whether or not it supports what we believe or have been taught?
And why must we use insults, mshipmate--"It's written plainly enough for a child to see and understand!" What type of congenial dialog is such a slam supposed to induce? Can we please be civil and let the Word speak for us?
Could I not accuse you of similar things when I post such passages as Revelation 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10 and Matthew 24:34? Was not John shown those things which were to shortly take place because the time was near? Is not that simple enough for a child to understand? What is my crime when I take the words at their plain meaning? What about Matthew 24:34--"THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place." It that not plain enough for a child to understand? Let us be careful of what we accuse others lest we find ourselves guilty as well. Okay? I speak also to myself!
Yes, you are correct, the answer IS right there in 2 Thessalonians 1. Again, mshipmate, I ask repeatedly because in reality you really have not answer.
To whom was Paul writing? Was he not writing specifically to those very flesh-and-blood Thessalonians of his day? Who are the YOUs of this passage? Are we? No! Clearly Paul is not speaking to us. He is addressing the great persecutions and tribulation THOSE saints of THAT day are ungoing and none other. Yes, there are applications for us, but WE are not the primary recipients of Paul's words and WE are not the subject of his words. This is why I keep asking you. Is it not you who is not seeing? And I really, truly do not intend to be mean-spirited!
For whom was Paul giving thanks? For those very Thessalonians of his day! Who was enduring "persecutions and tribulations" according to Paul? Those very Thessalonians of his day! According to Paul's own words, to whom was God going to "recompense tribulation?" To those very first-century Jews who were troubling those very first-century Thessalonians! That is the context, mshipmate.
What was to be given to those very Thessalonians of Paul's day--relief (anesis--see 2 Cor. 8:13)! Who was to share in that relief? Paul said that those very Thessalonians would have relief "with us." Who are the "us?" Paul and Silvanus, and Timothy--and by extension, all saints of that generation! When was this relief for those very Thessalonians and Paul and Silvanus and Timothy to come? When the Lord Jesus was revealed from heaven with His angels! Those very Thessalonians and those very persecutors of those very Thessalonians had to be alive in order for the Lord Jesus to bring them relief at His coming!
Those very flesh-and-blood saints of that first-century day were to personally be given real, actual relief from their persecutions and tribulation AT the coming of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His angels! That is what the text says! In this we ourselves find comfort--as God gave them relief when He sent His Son along with the angels to THEM to rescue THEM from their persecutors and take vengeance upon their persecutors, so He upholds us and gives us relief in times of trial. Their is application FOR us but not fulfillment IN us!
The bottom line is that WE are not in the mind of Paul when he wrote his letters to the Thessalonians. Paul nowhere promised that the Lord Jesus would come to us to give us relief from our persecutions and tribulation--he promised that the Lord Jesus was going to come to THEM and give THEM (those of Paul's day) relief!
This is not a matter of insisting on being right as you put it. This is a matter of determining what the passage clearly says. In what way have I misunderstood Paul's words, mshipmate? Am I not taking him at his word? Is that my crime?
Sincerely and in the spirit of brotherly love and kindness, Preterist
So you're saying the Bible is a Book of history and it is not really talking to us about the future?
02-21-2009, 01:24 AM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
Greetings, Shiloh1: I have a copy of Daniel B. Wallace's book, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics. Wallace was my Greek professor at Grace Theological Seminary (1982-1989). Have you studied Greek? (I'm not being rude, I'm just asking!).
Anyway, I enjoyed your quote of Revelation 3:10. Did you happen to notice when you posted it that it clearly says: "the hour that is about to come?" The Greek word there is mello meaning "about to." This word, unfortunately, is often ignored and mistranslated with the simple future!
Your entire post does not abolish the truths of preterism but actually upholds them!
It cannot and must not be overlooked that the time frame of this entire book is clearly stated in the book itself, yet many simply ignore it or attempt to redefine it. Those churches to whom the letters are addressed were actual, real churches of the first century made up of living, breathing saints of that same generation. It was THEY who were to endure tribulation and overcome! Everything John was shown involved those things which were in his day to shortly take place because the time was then near (Rev. 1:1, 3). In the last chapter, the angel again tells John that the things he is shown are to shortly take place. He is told to not seal up the words of the prophecy because the time for fulfillment was near! Jesus Himself said: "Behold, I am coming soon!"
The bowls of wrath of Revelation 16 also fall within the confines of the time frame clearly spelled out in the first and last chapters of the book.
We cannot understand the Revelation unless we place it in its proper historical setting--that first-century, pre-A. D. 70 world!
Preterist
Hello Preterist, Yes I did study Greek but probably not a long as you if Wallace was your teacher (lucky Dog). I was not particularly trying to argue against Preterism but Pre-trib and for post-trib
As far as mello it can have other meanings - you should know that.
71.36μέλλωb: to be inevitable, with respect to future developments—‘must be, has to be.’ οὕτως καὶ ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου μέλλει πάσχειν ὑπ̓ αὐτῶν ‘in the same way the Son of Man must also be mistreated by them’ Mt 17.12. In a number of languages there is a problem involved in speaking of what is necessary or inevitable in the future, for a distinction is made between that which is purely impersonal or physical and that which is the result of some person’s purpose, intent, or activity. As in the case of δεῖ in Mk 13.7 (71.34), it is impossible in the case of μέλλω in Mt 17.12 to determine whether the reference is merely to an inevitable future event (‘bound to happen’) or whether this is part of the plan and purpose of God. In order to avoid a wrong interpretation of Mt 17.12, it may therefore be useful to translate as ‘in the same way the Son of Man will most certainly be mistreated by them.’
Louw, Johannes P. ; Nida, Eugene Albert: Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament : Based on Semantic Domains. electronic ed. of the 2nd edition. New York : United Bible societies, 1996, c1989, S. 1:671
As far as shortly you know it could mean quickly from the point those things begin to happen not from the point of the writing.
67.56ταχύa; ταχέωςb; ταχινόςb, ή, όν; ἐν τάχει: pertaining to a point of time subsequent to another point of time (either an event in the discourse or the time of the discourse itself), with emphasis upon the relatively brief interval between the two points of time—‘soon, very soon.’
Louw, Johannes P. ; Nida, Eugene Albert: Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament : Based on Semantic Domains. electronic ed. of the 2nd edition. New York : United Bible societies, 1996, c1989, S. 1:635
I understand the concepts of the Revelation being fullfilled in the first century. I was not preoccupied with that at this moment though.
As far as you WE argument in Thess. did you read my post on it I think it makes clear some points as to why your position is not necessarily the case. I will try and find it if you have not.
Greetings Deb in Va: To whom is Paul writing in 1 Thessalonians 5? Is he not writing to those very, flesh-and-blood Thessalonians concerning things that are to personally happen to THEM? Why did Paul not have to write to THEM, his brethren, concerning the times and seasons? They knew that the Lord would come as a thief in the night. Why did that matter? Because Paul reminds THEM that THEY are not in darkness and because THEY (i.e. those very first-century Thessalonians) are not in darkness, THEY should not worry about being overtaken as a thief.
In Paul's closing prayer, he prays that those very Thessalonians would be found blameless at "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes. 5:23). Clearly, Paul, those Thessalonians and other saints of THAT day expected Him to come in THEIR lifetime. That is the context; that is the audience relevance. It must not be overlooked!
Preterist
Wow Preterist, you've been busy in this thread. I knew you'd eventually get to my post and respond as you always do, with the same old song and dance about who Paul was writing to, etc. etc. blah blah blah. We've been through this before and you've been told by any number of people (including myself) that we believe you are wrong in your position that the Lord returned back in 70 A. D.
If you cannot see the things that are happening in this world, in this country, right now, TODAY, and how they correlate with what will be happening during the end times spoken of in the scriptures, then you are blind and I don't believe there is anything more that I, or anyone else, can say to you that will help you see that you are in error.
I pray the Lord will reveal to you the truth so that you will be prepared for what is about to come.
02-21-2009, 11:48 AM
2K5Gx2km
n/a posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist
Richio: Who are the "those who are alive and remain?" Was not Paul clearly addressing THOSE first-century Thessalonians? What did his words mean to THEM? How would THEY have understood them.
Did not Paul say WE who are alive? Whom did he mean by that? He meant himself, those Thessalonians to whom he was writing, and all saints of his day! "WE [I, Paul, and you Thessalonians--WE) who are alive and remain!" In their lifetime, THEY lived to see the dead rise and THEY were caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. When did that happen? It happened in THEIR lifetime just as Jesus promised in John 14! It was to those very disciples that He promised to return--and He did!
Preterist
Here is the other post w/ some modicifactions.
Paul also thought that he might not be alive at the return of the Lord and/or the rapture - I Thess.5:9-10. '...so that whether we wake or sleep we might live with him.'
Just because Paul hoped and made possible that the return and /or rapture occurred in his liftime is far different than saying he definately taught that these would occur before his death. That is not what the context teaches nor is it even sound exegesis.
Since no one (not even Jesus) knew when the connsummation of the end of the age began why is it so unreasonable for Paul to think that it could(not shall) have happened in his liftime? The timing of which is up to the Lord and for Paul to expect that it might happen is not proof of preterism.
The difference is between possibility and certainty (must happen in 1st century because Paul used WE).
Since The letter to the Thess. is Scripture why is it an unreasoble thing to assume that if the Lord did not come back in his lifteime that the WE refers to any and all christians (inclusive 'we' regarding the Body of Christ not just the Thess. and Paul) up and until that whenever that day or time happens? There is no grammatical nore literary reason why this should not be the case. You argument and logic is too restrictive and would say that Paul did not have in mind any other christians besides Him and the Thessolonians.
Now look at chapter 1, as many have pointed out the Lord did not comewith his angles nor with flaming fire nor in an physical appearance with a bodily resurrection. Notice that those who troubled the Thess. were to be troubled with everlasting destruction (v.9) - that cannot happen with the tribulation - it is temporary and temporal. The word tribulation is better translated affliction and in the context it is everlasting. God is going to repay the ones who are aflicting them (and us and all Christians of all time) with everlasting affliction and destruction.
Also, mshipmate gave you a verse (Rev.6:10) Question - why are they still awaiting the vengence of God? The Book was written after 70 A.D. And even if it was not Paul died and is dead and was not alive at the return of the Lord as you suspossed in I Thess.4. with your WE argument. Give it up it is a weak argument.
Furhtermore, if Paul had taught the certainty of that fact then he was wrong for the bodily resurrection has not happened - and those who diminish that fact or spiritualize it - are false teachers just as Paul warned Timothy about in II Tim.2:17. Now I do not know if you are a full preterist or a partial (which is kinda of laughable) so I am not accussing you of being a false teacher since I have not heard you deny the physical return of Christ and bodily resurrection of believers.
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