Lake of fire (translate, symbolize, eternity, moral)

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

I think you need to look in the mirror and clean up your vision before you address me with a judgemental tone. The mere fact that I teach you, and you are an unwilling student, puts you in the position to take things too personally. That is fine. I attack your view and the interpretation you present Ironmaw, not you personally as a Christian. It takes a sound debator to differentiate the two. In which you appear to lack systematically, hence, your comments.

I apologize if I have attacked you personally in the past.

You teach me? At least that is what you believe you are doing, from my perspective you are only testing my faith.

You teach that evil and sin and death are everlasting ... You teach that Satan has a greater victory over Gods creation than Christ. You teach that the work of Christ on the cross is unable and therefore will never overcome the works of the devil throughout all creation. That is to say ultimately you teach that the works of the devil are greater than and over come the work of Christ on the cross in the lives of most people. You teach that We must first love god before he will show his love to us. You teach that God is vindictive, and that he will somehow benefit from the everlasting damnation of most of his creation. You teach that Christ will not return in the way he was seen leaving by his own disciples. You teach that there is no literal resurrection of the dead as Christ was literally resurrected. There is nothing that you teach and believe beside the deity of Christ with which i agree.

[JamesMRohde]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

You teach me? At least that is what you believe you are doing, from my perspective you are only testing my faith.

You teach that evil and sin and death are everlasting ... You teach that Satan has a greater victory over Gods creation than Christ. You teach that the work of Christ on the cross is unable and therefore will never overcome the works of the devil throughout all creation. That is to say ultimately you teach that the works of the devil are greater than and over come the work of Christ on the cross in the lives of most people. You teach that We must first love god before he will show his love to us. You teach that God is vindictive, and that he will somehow benefit from the everlasting damnation of most of his creation. You teach that Christ will not return in the way he was seen leaving by his own disciples. You teach that there is no literal resurrection of the dead as Christ was literally resurrected. There is nothing that you teach and believe beside the deity of Christ with which i agree.

It would be good to add that since we are being made in God's image and likeness, that we are to be immitaters of God, then we are to become Master Torturers who will never cease to torture their victims, will never forgive or be satisfied so will never release them, all the while whispering in their ears, "I love you, I love you, I love you."

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

You teach that evil and sin and death are everlasting

For the unsaved. Rev 21 and 22

You teach that Satan has a greater victory over Gods creation than Christ.

1 Cor 15...Christ is victorious for His people Rev 21, the redemption of the Garden. God's creation was "very Good", however, Adam, His people, sinned, in his covenant, thus the need to redeem that covenant, which He did.

You teach that the work of Christ on the cross is unable and therefore will never overcome the works of the devil throughout all creation.

It has already overcome the works of the devil. In Christ, the power of death and sin is eliminated.

That is to say ultimately you teach that the works of the devil are greater than and over come the work of Christ on the cross in the lives of most people.

You are very redundant. It takes you 30 words that can be said in five.

You teach that We must first love god before he will show his love to us.

I teach that God loves those who put their trust in him, Christ doesn't pray for the world, but He prays for whom God has given Him. John 17:9

You teach that God is vindictive, and that he will somehow benefit from the everlasting damnation of most of his creation.

His glory is in play here. Never underestimate His purpose in things. God is just, vengeance, merciful, and angry, wroth, and love. If you can't accept that, you create another god, which you have.

You teach that Christ will not return in the way he was seen leaving by his own disciples.

In the clouds? To only a few people? Is that how you think He will return? In the clouds, quietly, to only a few people? Or maybe what you call in Acts 1:11 is likened to returning with thousands of thousands of saints, or that He returned with a literal sword in His mouth, or riding on a white horse dripping in blood? Your literal reading of the text collapses on itself on all fronts. It's called symbolism, you should try it sometime.

You teach that there is no literal resurrection of the dead as Christ was literally resurrected.

1 Cor 15...shed corruptible, put on incorruptible. That means no Flesh body.

There is nothing that you teach and believe beside the deity of Christ with which i agree.

Your view of universalism and futurism will be obsolete in time.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

His glory is in play here. Never underestimate His purpose in things. God is just, vengeance, merciful, and angry, wroth, and love. If you can't accept that, you create another god, which you have.

This utter ignorance about the source of the negative human emotions is sad. Vengeance, anger, wrath, jealousy, etc. . . are the result of our human weaknesses and ego needs . . . GOD HAS NO WEAKNESSES . . . these are human traits projected onto God by primitive savages from 2000- 4000+ years ago!!! The fact that they have been retained by modern man is a travesty and a testament to the primal power of primitive human ignorance.

Your view of universalism and futurism will be obsolete in time.

The primitive ignorance of a wrathful God will eventually succumb to knowledge and intelligence . . . NOT our loving God.

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

This utter ignorance about the source of the negative human emotions is sad. Vengeance, anger, wrath, jealousy, etc. . . are the result of our human weaknesses and ego needs . . . GOD HAS NO WEAKNESSES . . . these are human traits projected onto God by primitive savages from 2000- 4000+ years ago!!! The fact that they have been retained by modern man is a travesty and a testament to the primal power of primitive human ignorance. The primitive ignorance of a wrathful God will eventually succumb to knowledge and intelligence . . . NOT our loving God.

Mystic,

Did any of us ever say God has a weakness?
The scriptures plainly state that God experiences these things, or do you deny the very text? It seems so.

Your savage alluding statements are beyond the text, the spirit, and the doctrine of the Christian faith. Find another premise to argue from, it makes your approach elemtary.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by dipidydoodaa

i was reading in another thread where the lake of fire was mention, having questions and not wanting to highjack the other thread, thought i would ask the questions in a new thread. i want to take them one at a time for clarity to each:

i read in Rev20:
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.



would it be safe to assume that the lake of fire is where the eternal punishment will take place?

Yes.

Revelation 14:11
"....And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

• Believers aren't condemned...those who reject Jesus and his words are.

John 12:48
"There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

John 3:18
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

2 Thessalonians 2:12
"and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."

• Believers are given rest, not the unbeliever:

Matthew 11:28
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Mystic,

Did any of us ever say God has a weakness?
The scriptures plainly state that God experiences these things, or do you deny the very text? It seems so.

The emotions REQUIRE psychological weakness to manifest, period. To insist that God has them is to insist that God has psychological weaknesses!!

Your savage alluding statements are beyond the text, the spirit, and the doctrine of the Christian faith. Find another premise to argue from, it makes your approach elemtary.

I assure you there is nothing elementary about my scholarship. To ignore the primitive interpretations and the implications of such psychological conditions on the interpretations recorded by said primitives is patently absurd on its face. NOTHING about existence or life is STAGNANT . . . except for these absurd doctrines and dogma perpetuated by primitive ignorance and superstition . . . AS IF God could possibly want humanity to stagnate at our primitive ancestors level of understanding.

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

The emotions REQUIRE psychological weakness to manifest, period. To insist that God has them is to insist that God has psychological weaknesses!!

We aren't talking about weakness, but anger, wrath, jealousness, vengeance and love. To insist it is not in the scripture makes you a false teacher.

I assure you there is nothing elementary about my scholarship.

From what I have seen, especially in this regard, you have very much to learn and read in the Bible.

To ignore the primitive interpretations and the implications of such psychological conditions on the interpretations recorded by said primitives is patently absurd on its face. NOTHING about existence or life is STAGNANT . . . except for these absurd doctrines and dogma perpetuated by primitive ignorance and superstition . . . AS IF God could possibly want humanity to stagnate at our primitive ancestors level of understanding.

More New Age nonsense. Either you take the scripture for what it is, or you go outside the bounds of the Word and are deemed false.

Your choice.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

We aren't talking about weakness, but anger, wrath, jealousness, vengeance and love. To insist it is not in the scripture makes you a false teacher.

You ARE talking weakness here because those negative human emotions (except for love) are CAUSED by human psychological weakness and ego issues. They do NOT exist otherwise, period! Remaining ignorant about the very basis of our human emotions is no excuse for attributing such nonsense to our God because our primitive ancestors mistakenly did. All those emotions are INFERRED as MOTIVES in the "mind of God" by primitive minds that only knew of their own such motives. They had NO WAY to actually know the "mind of God" UNTIL Jesus . . . when they had the "mind of Christ" to see God's TRUE NATURE and motivations.

From what I have seen, especially in this regard, you have very much to learn and read in the Bible.

No comment.

More New Age nonsense. Either you take the scripture for what it is, or you go outside the bounds of the Word and are deemed false.
Your choice.

Dispute my intellectual interpretations, exegesis and eisegesis of scripture and synthesis of as much as I was capable of from the knowledge available to humankind . . . but stop categorizing me with your favorite "bogeymen" (New Age, or whatever). I have nothing to do with any of them.

I am an atheist turned Christian (NOT Jehovan) . . . (literally by the mind of God) . . . who has studied intently for decades to find an explanation. All that effort led me to Christ and provided an entirely "science-compatible" and "scripture-compatible" explanation for it all. You are free to disagree with THAT . . . or try to understand it more rationally. Your choice.

[sciotamicks]

Fair enough Mystic...but the scriptrue sayeth...The Lord sayeth...He is Jealous, wroth, vengeant and loving...and on and on. It's called dictation. One says, the other writes.